Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.

The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.

The following are notes from EP. 197 Shifting From Control to Influence In Parenting and Beyond

In this episode, we apply ASLAN's core principles to one of our most important relationships: parenting. Tom and Tab explore shifting our focus from the illusion of control to the power of influence. We'll discuss how loosening our grip on outcomes allows us to walk alongside our children, fostering deeper connections and building a foundation for healthy, long-lasting relationships. By focusing on influence through connection and invitation, we create an environment where core needs are met. This episode is for any parent looking to influence without sacrificing the relationship.

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00:14
Tom Stanfill
Welcome to another episode of sales with ASLAN. Tab?

00:17
Tab Norris
Yes.

00:18
Tom Stanfill
I'm here with Tab Norris. I'm your host, Tom Stampel. I didn't say my name. Tab.

00:23
Tab Norris
I was going to fill that in.

00:26
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Yeah. It's Tom Stanfill. It's on the little description.

00:31
Tab Norris
Yeah.

00:31
Tom Stanfill
And I'm, and I'm first because, you know, I'm older and taller. We've always talked about that.

00:36
Tab Norris
Yeah.

00:37
Tom Stanfill
Big topic today. I know we've got, we got a pretty interesting, we've got a little bit of a disruptive topic of something that's kind of probably not expected. Right. Oh, right field. Thank you.

00:49
Tab Norris
Where did that come from?

00:50
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, right field.

00:51
Tab Norris
Like that. So what is our topic today? Tom Stanfield?

00:55
Tom Stanfill
Well, I've had some request over the years through dinners that I've had with clients, partners, conversations I've had with all kinds of different people about parenting. Right. Well, you know, and the book talks about unreceptive, and I use a lot of examples of that. I kind of brought the best lab for developing some of the principles and concepts that I wrote about in the book and about influence really, coming from raising teenagers.

01:24
Tab Norris
Yeah.

01:24
Tom Stanfill
I mean, if you can influence teenagers, you can influence anybody. So how do these questions, like, how does selling or how can I leverage what you're teaching us about selling to be a better parent?

01:39
Tab Norris
Well, see, I, Tom, yesterday, I was teaching a class yesterday, a catalyst workshop. And it's funny you say this. Everybody was lighting up around the parenting application all day long. I mean, all day long. Like they, because I kind of opened the gates a little bit. I threw out a story. And you're exactly right. They were just, you know, like raising their hand. Golly, you know, this really would work with my son, who I'm having some challenges with. So I think it's a very relevant topic that I'm excited to hear what you have to say, Jeff.

02:10
Tom Stanfill
And if you're sort of thinking right now, well, I'm not a parent of teens. Right. Or, you know, preteens. This, everything we're going to talk about applies to all of our relationships. And I think, and if we can apply to our relationships outside of work, it also, it really applies to selling. Right. So it all connects. But I think about it as if I can successfully apply some of the principles we're going to talk about today with my spouse and my children, then I can. Customers are easy.

02:46
Tab Norris
Well, well. And one of the guys on the call yesterday said, tab, I don't know about you, but I find that my application of some of this truth at home is a whole lot harder if.

02:57
Tom Stanfill
You can do it. Yeah, I mean, I teach. I'm constantly told. I think you teach this stuff, but you're not doing with me. I'm like yesterday too.

03:05
Tab Norris
Remember what you talked about? Like to take the trip thing?

03:09
Tom Stanfill
You're not taking the trip. And the good news is I. I do see it. I'm like, you're right. And I'll do it with. I'll do it with employee. It would have really been helpful if you would have asked me what I thought I'd let you know. That's really a good point.

03:29
Tab Norris
Well, I know I was working with one of our people and he called me out on my trainer huddle to do what I actually teach. I'm like, oh yeah, that's pretty bad.

03:39
Tom Stanfill
Listen, we just sell this stuff. We're not really. No, but it is, it works. It's just so counterintuitive that you have the constantly remind you that going sort of with the stream, with the current is going to lead you in a bad place, which is kind of crazy. That's true about life. I think about that. Life is like if you go down till, if you coast, you go downhill, if you go downstream, if you do what's natural, everything's in a state of erosion. It's like it doesn't work. So we're going to talk about some counterintuitive stuff related specifically, we're going to apply it specifically to parenting. And we're. And we want to focus on kind of when you're moving and you think about the stages of parenting, a lot of people struggle from moving from this kind of role of conform.

04:25
Tom Stanfill
Kind of, we go from care to conform like we're caring for you. If I don't take care of you will die.

04:31
Tab Norris
Yeah, yeah.

04:32
Tom Stanfill
Right. Then you kind of move into this conform stage. Like, don't, you know, buckle your seatbelt, right. You need to do your homework, you gotta eat food, you gotta don't cross the street. You gotta all the things. It's like, again, if I don't get you to do this protection, there's a reason by it. And either two, you don't need to explain to them why. And then they move into this next stage. And this is where a lot of parents struggle to adjust. And this is where we start to apply kind of the same influence, skills and approach that we talk about at Aslan as when you move into this, what I call council stage and this is when you're more of a coach because you can't control them. And so this is when. This is when this big shift happens.

05:15
Tom Stanfill
And where a lot of people struggle is when they. Is when they kind of move into that stage. And that's what we're talking about today.

05:21
Tab Norris
Well, it's good.

05:22
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

05:22
Tab Norris
Because I have, obviously, I have two kids that are grown and out of the house, but I have one that's still left senior in high school, and we talk about that all the time. We're kind of. We're not. We're in this launch phase. I call it the launch phase where we're letting go. She's about a year. She's going to be off on her own. I love that my influence falls. Falls apart, falls away.

05:43
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, but we.

05:44
Tab Norris
It's a balance, isn't it? I mean, it's like we still want to be in control, but we need to let go. And how much. And you've always been my superhero role model for anything around parenting.

05:55
Tom Stanfill
Well, I was first, so I made all the mistakes, and I think it's helpful to know that I raised four children, and so my kids are all now married, and so I'm now watching them raise their children. So I have 14 grandchildren. So I've seen this whole evolution. And so a lot of what I share is from my mistakes, but there were some things that I did well as well, so. And that was really because it was role model for me, so I can't really take credit for it. But the first thing I would say is, I think, really critical. It's kind of what you're saying in the launch phase is that we got to change our role and our objective. So, like, when I'm talking to my kids, when they're signed at the teen years.

06:33
Tab Norris
Yeah.

06:34
Tom Stanfill
I'm starting to change my objective from getting them to do what I tell them to do.

06:39
Tab Norris
Right.

06:39
Tom Stanfill
Like, do your homework, all the things to actually, how do I lead them to the truth? How do I influence them? And so it's not about do I get them to do what I want them to do, but other words, I think of it as if I can put the truth on the table and I can get them to look at it. I can't force them to take it. It's like food. I can't force them to eat it, but I want them to look at it and see it and go, okay, and then they can choose to take it and receive it. But I want to have the relationship where they want to be with me. They want to spend time with me. And ultimately they're willing to go, okay, dad, I will consider that.

07:11
Tom Stanfill
I will listen to you and so that I can walk with them through this path, so that when they leave and they go to college or wherever they go, I'm still with them.

07:21
Tab Norris
Yeah.

07:22
Tom Stanfill
Right. They've embraced the truth, so I can't control, because control is just an illusion. So how do I get them? How do I get them to go? Okay, I'm going to listen to you.

07:32
Tab Norris
Yeah.

07:32
Tom Stanfill
And that's, that. That's a different objective than I'm going to control and get you to do something, because there's a lot at stake. So our instincts are to control because we're afraid they're going to drink and drive, or we're afraid they're going to not go to school, and then they're going to make really bad decisions and they're going to have a miserable life, or they're going to marry the wrong people. All those things we worry about is big, but control is just an illusion. We have no control. We can't control what they do when they go to school. We can't control what they do. Yeah. It just. We don't have control. So we want influence. We want to trade illusion of control for influence. Love it.

08:03
Tab Norris
And I'm. And it's a fight. I mean, it is. That's our daily conversation around here right now.

08:10
Tom Stanfill
No. Yeah, yeah.

08:12
Tab Norris
Remember, we can do nothing in ten months.

08:17
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. So.

08:18
Tab Norris
Living an illusion. So we're better off coaching right now.

08:22
Tom Stanfill
You know, you want receptivity. You want them to say. And that's really the first. That's. That's what I would. I think that's the first thing to focus on is when there's an opportunity to influence. You're seeing something and you want to influence. The first thing you want, and this is super critical, is you want them to extend an invitation. Right? So. So my daughter, when she was about 16, she started dating this guy, and I'm gonna name. I'm gonna change his name to Roger.

08:54
Tab Norris
Roger. It wasn't Roger.

08:59
Tom Stanfill
Roger. So she started is her first really love, you know, and her older brother was playing football with Roger, so you.

09:09
Tab Norris
Probably knew a little bit about.

09:10
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, we had a. The FBI was, the family bureau of Investigation was playing, you know, telling. And Taylor really loved Tyndall and cared about her, and he was a little concerned. So he's telling me what a little bit about Roger. So I want to, you know, I want to talk to Tyndall because I can tell they're getting serious. And there's a lot of things you worry about when 16 year olds get serious.

09:33
Tab Norris
It sounds like, you know, and she.

09:35
Tom Stanfill
Had already was starting to drink, and there were some things she was doing that was, she was making bad decisions. And so were kind of. We were starting to worry. She was starting to rebel. She was. She'd moved from that sort of, we call it, she would move to the blue eyeshadow phase.

09:48
Tab Norris
Oh, gosh.

09:49
Tom Stanfill
You know, she told her that really dark eyeshadow, and she said, you know, she had that face. I heard somebody say, RfB.

09:56
Tab Norris
Oh, yeah.

09:57
Tom Stanfill
RBF.

09:58
Tab Norris
RBF.

09:59
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, you can look that up. You can look that up. And so she was just not. She was not. I did not have influence with her, so I wanted to go talk to her. And I knew the first thing I've got to get her to say, dad, what do you think I should do about my relationship with Philip? I'm sorry. Roger. Roger.

10:24
Tab Norris
Roger.

10:25
Tom Stanfill
Roger. Roger Phillips was his last name.

10:28
Tab Norris
Roger Phillips.

10:29
Tom Stanfill
Phillips.

10:30
Tab Norris
It was. Mister Phillips is what you meant.

10:32
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Mister Phillips. Mister Phillips. Roger Phillips was his name. That's so funny. I'm sure he's listening to this podcast. So I knock on her door, right? Because I want the invitation. Until Tyndall says to me, what do you think? Whether she audibly says that or she believes that, until your daughter says, what do you think about her new boyfriend, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? Until they say that, they are. Just when you talk, they're thinking about something else.

11:04
Tab Norris
Yeah.

11:04
Tom Stanfill
And you've talking might feel good, but nothing happens. And so I knock on the door and I, you know, this is my first conversation. I said, hey, I heard you're dating Roger Phillips. And. And I said, hey, can we talk about that? And she said, what?

11:23
Tab Norris
Yeah, not receptive.

11:25
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, she's in the closed zone. I say, what I can tell she's close. She doesn't want to talk to me. There's no invitation, so I'm not going to come in and give her a speech. I'm not going to. She's got to say, let's. She's going to invite me to sit on the end of the bed and start having a conversation about this. And so. And I said, hey, listen, I want you to know that you can date whoever you want to date. And you could see that she was kind of. What I said, you can. I said, I can't control you. I said, you can date whoever you want to date. As long as you abide by the rules of the household, and, you know, it's within reason, you don't, you're not in trouble. You know, you're not in danger. I should say trouble.

12:02
Tom Stanfill
Danger. I said, you date whoever you want. I can't control you. Marry whoever you want. You can do ultimately whatever you want. I cannot control you. I said, here's my reason. I want to talk to you. I don't want you to get hurt, and I want you to be happy. And she's like, okay, so what do.

12:19
Tab Norris
You say to that?

12:20
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. I'm like, so if you want to dance, she's like, well, okay. And I said, so tell me about Roger.

12:27
Tab Norris
Yeah.

12:28
Tom Stanfill
And so we started.

12:29
Tab Norris
So she quickly, almost immediately, you saw almost immediately.

12:34
Tom Stanfill
She started having. We started having conversations. She let me in. So we would go to lunch and we would talk about. We would talk about, you know, she. She invited me in to allow me to enter into her world. And you know the first thing, I can't, because here's what we want to do. We're like, let me tell you why you're not going to tell me, tell you what's going to happen. Let me tell you why this guy's wrong for you. Let me tell you what you're not going to do. Let me tell you what I did. And we just start talking, and while they're doing that, they're checking their phone. Yeah. In their head or whatever. So that's the first step. Got to get an invitation. Have you done that with examples?

13:12
Tab Norris
Yeah, I mean, I've done that with my daughter as well. And, you know, we have this conversation all the time. I'm like, here. I remember telling her that when she turned 16 because she was going out with a boy at that point in time.

13:27
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

13:28
Tab Norris
And, and I said that really? I said almost the exact same thing. I just said, scares me to death. But now that you're driving, you can do anything you want to do. And I. And I hate that. It makes me feel really out of control. But I said the most important thing for us, and there was no, there wasn't. On a traumatic experience. I kind of was doing it in a preemptive way. You know what I mean? I just said, mike, I really just want to talk. I want you to feel comfortable, because I can't. I can't control you. I just want to always. I want to be somebody you can always talk to.

14:01
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

14:02
Tab Norris
Good, bad or indifferent. I want to walk through this with you, but I just know I'm I know you can do whatever you want to do.

14:10
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. So let's change this to be about you and the fact that I'm communicating that I don't have control. So there's nothing to resist. So there's obviously two things. We need to communicate another centered objective. To get an invitation, we need to communicate another centered objective, and we need to drop the rope. Right. We need to not pull them, which is really scary with your children. But remember, control is just an illusion you do not have. So what you're doing is you're trading the illusion of control for the opportunity to walk with them, for the opportunity to be part of that discussion, which scares us. But I think if we stop and say anything else I do won't work.

14:49
Tab Norris
Yeah.

14:50
Tom Stanfill
Now, again, if they're open, you already have the invitation. They're like, yeah, what do you think? Yeah, this isn't applied. They're like asking you what? So you know, you can go to the. So then the next step is once we get an invitation, and this is where it's really hard, I think this is. Then they start talking.

15:07
Tab Norris
Yes. And then you want to. Now you want to fix everything. See, that's what my problem is.

15:13
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Like, they start talking. Okay, so this is what were doing. And we're going to this. Parking takes me to car.

15:17
Tab Norris
Like, whoa, wait a minute.

15:20
Tom Stanfill
Whoa. Yeah. The next thing we want to do is we want to validate whatever they tell us. Because remember, our greatest need is love, acceptance and work. So this is an opportunity where I can communicate that I accept her regardless of what she says.

15:34
Tab Norris
Yes.

15:35
Tom Stanfill
That whatever she tells me, I'm going to accept her. That doesn't mean I accept what she wants to do or her opinion, but her what it. Cause whatever's important to her needs to be important to me.

15:51
Tab Norris
Yeah.

15:51
Tom Stanfill
Like, she wants, you know, so we started talking about why she's excited about this and how she feels inferior to her brothers. And this is the first person that's ever really blah, blah. And she starts communicating to me, what? What? How she sees the world and she needs to know that I get it. I felt the same way. And she feels heard, and I'm not trying to fix her. Yeah, because where's what we do. Okay, great. You want to. Okay, here's what's going to happen when you do that. All right. Does he drink? Are you going to do this? Well, then this is, you know, and it's like. And we get in such feat. And it really comes from love. It's we're afraid.

16:27
Tab Norris
Yeah. Yeah. It's, and the thing I will say, my watch my wife do this.

16:34
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

16:34
Tab Norris
With my daughter on and a tough situation. And she, you know, a lot of prayer, obviously, no prayer. But I just, it was really brilliant how she did it, because she waited till there was a time of receptivity. You know what I mean? If there was a moment, timing was important.

16:57
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

16:57
Tab Norris
And what she did is she started just asking. I mean, she literally set it up and just ask questions.

17:07
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

17:09
Tab Norris
It was just, she just said, you know, I know we may forgot we talked about, remember we talked a long time ago about this and kind of the things you're looking for in a boyfriend or, you know, it's like, yeah. And it's like, have you ever gone back and gone through that list? And she's like, you know, I really hadn't looked at in a while. I said she, I thought she goes, wouldn't it may be kind of cool just to kind of run through that grid and see how it worked? And it was so funny and didn't do it and so on her own. And I think that's what you're saying. You're kind of releasing control.

17:41
Tom Stanfill
It just, it was just exposing her life.

17:45
Tab Norris
It's her life and it's her thing and it's her deal. And you're just kind of reminding her of something that she already talked about.

17:52
Tom Stanfill
That's, that's really, that's a really good point. And that's what's hard about changing roles is like, now, this is your life. Right. And as a coach. Right. And as a salesperson, we're talking to customers. This is, that we can't, it's their world. We got to say, we got to help guide them. And so when we're. Yeah, when we're asking questions, we're like, is this what you want?

18:11
Tab Norris
Yeah.

18:12
Tom Stanfill
You know, is this what. And you can ask those questions in a way where they can tell you're manipulating and you can ask those questions in a way where you can. They can tell you're curious. Yeah, you can, you're pulling the rope. And here's the way that I try to coach myself is, you know, it. What am I going to do when they give the wrong answer?

18:33
Tab Norris
Yeah.

18:33
Tom Stanfill
You know, and if they get the wrong answer, do you do then, like, okay, now you kick into. And it's hard. It's hard. And I think part of it is go ahead. What are you going to say?

18:43
Tab Norris
No, I was going to say, you know, they gave the wrong answer. And, I mean, I just. You're triggering this. I gave the wrong answer and I didn't want to shut down the communication, so I didn't. I fought the. I wanted to go fix it. I wanted to say, well, you're being an idiot, and I just wanted to launch, but If I did that, I was afraid it was going to shut down the communication and I didn't want to do that. So tell me, how I. How do you do that? What's the best way to handle that?

19:14
Tom Stanfill
Well, I think I want to finish there. I want to finish kind of the discovery I like with a customer finished discovery. And so I feel like I got everything. Your time will come.

19:28
Tab Norris
Yeah.

19:28
Tom Stanfill
And your time will come. It might be like intendal's case. I walked down the road with her and we had multiple conversations. And I will never forget, I had taken her to lunch and I, and she was starting to ask me questions about what I think. She goes, what do you think about this? And I said, well, if that. I said, here's what's going to you. She started my drinking and she was talking about other things. I said, if you do that, this is going to happen. Does it? That maybe. I don't think that's what you want, but this is the way the world works. If you do that, this will happen. And she goes, I don't think that's going to happen. That's fine.

20:02
Tab Norris
I said, my daughter said that to me.

20:04
Tom Stanfill
If you.

20:05
Tab Norris
Dad, you don't get it.

20:06
Tom Stanfill
You don't get it. And I said, and here's what I said to her. I said, look, I've been down this river already. I'm way down the river from you and I know where all the rapids are. And I said, it doesn't mean I'm any better than you. I said, I've been in some of those rapids. I'm just telling you where the rapids are because you're just starting down the river. You listen to me. Not listen to me. I'm just telling you where the rapids are. And so she's like, well, I'm not going to listen to you. And I said, cool. It's your life.

20:32
Tab Norris
Yeah.

20:32
Tom Stanfill
So I'm having lunch with her. And what I said was going to happened. She gets a call from her boyfriend. He breaks up with her. Some things happen. I don't need to get into the detail. And she is devastated. But I'm there with her.

20:48
Tab Norris
Yeah.

20:49
Tom Stanfill
And sometimes. And that all ended as I predicted that it would or helped her, but. And the pain that I was trying to help her avoid was not avoided. Yeah, but it never. Our relationship was never contingent upon her following my advice, because the advice wasn't about me. It was about her.

21:09
Tab Norris
Yeah, that's true.

21:09
Tom Stanfill
So when all this thing hit the fan and, you know, she had. Her life was wrecked, literally, by her. By her, you know, her 17 year old perspective. I mean, literally, she. She was. We were worried she was even suicidal because of some things that happened. We sent her flowers. You know, we didn't say, I told you so. We didn't say, you know, here's. You should have listened to me because I'm smarter. It was like, hey, I'm sorry. It's not about you following my advice. I just didn't want this to happen. And so, you know, that's ultimately the goal, is to get them to tell you what's going on, and that will give you an opportunity at some point to share your perspective. But until they want to. Until they're like.

21:52
Tom Stanfill
And I always ask, I say, do you want to know what I think about this?

21:55
Tab Norris
Yeah. I love it.

21:57
Tom Stanfill
And she says. She says no.

22:00
Tab Norris
Yeah, well, that's okay.

22:01
Tom Stanfill
You need to own that now. You need to own. There's somebody that's been down the river, wants to love you, wants to share. And she said, I don't want to hear what I want them to say. I don't want to hear what you have to say.

22:12
Tab Norris
Yeah.

22:13
Tom Stanfill
And I say, okay, sweetie.

22:14
Tab Norris
Yeah.

22:15
Tom Stanfill
And then if there's no baggage from that. Okay. You want to go shopping? Yeah. Because our relationship is not contingent upon you following me. Our relationship is not contingent upon anything. My love for you is unconditional. So I'm here to offer truth. You take it. Leave it. You and I are fine regardless of what you do. There's nothing you can do.

22:33
Tab Norris
Yeah.

22:33
Tom Stanfill
There's no behavior. There's nothing. Not one thing you can do that's going to separate you from me. I'm always.

22:39
Tab Norris
I think people talk about that, but it has to be real. Give that lip service and they go, do you know that I love you no matter what? And it's just like the kids going, well, you know, whatever. Whatever. I don't. I don't really think that's true. It's conditional.

22:52
Tom Stanfill
But that's a. That's a really good point. I think that's one of the things that motivated me to do it is. It was always a test to me. Like when she did something that should end in a. In a damaged relationship. In other words, I kind of talk about taking the punch. She punched me. Yeah. And I didn't punch back. That doesn't mean there wasn't consequences. That wasn't mean that I was soft, but I just never damaged the relationship. It was an opportunity for me to demonstrate that my love was unconditional.

23:26
Tab Norris
Yeah, well, that's the best thing that happened for us with our kids, is we're on the other side of it and.

23:33
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

23:33
Tab Norris
You know, and I think that they know, they start realizing that we just love them unconditionally because, yeah, we just went through a really bad thing and we did exactly what we told you not to do, and we kind of. You clearly knew what was going to happen and you did it anyway. And we love you, and, you know, we love you and we supported you. We didn't throw you on the curb, and we didn't do anything else, and. And now it's just easier. But. But I'm not gonna. I won't name. I have three kids, but I have one.

24:04
Tom Stanfill
One of them named Roger.

24:08
Tab Norris
But one of them. And I tell them, yeah, all the time. You just seem to like to learn through pain.

24:16
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

24:18
Tab Norris
And they laugh and go, I guess you're kind of right. And I go, you don't have to do that. Yeah, but. But, you know, I mean, but it's okay. That's their. To your point, it's their life.

24:29
Tom Stanfill
It's. If they know, if you're, like, walking with them and you love them regardless. And this is tries to our customers, like, yeah. Anybody in our life. Hey, our. Hey, listen, it's unconditional acceptance. Like, as long as we're. We're in a relationship, you can. You can do whatever. And it's. It's. It's, it's. It's non negotiable. I'm in.

24:51
Tab Norris
Yeah.

24:51
Tom Stanfill
And like. But I'll tell you what I think, you know, Tyndall would do stuff and I would be like, why are you taking her shopping? Like, she lost her car because she drank and drive. Why does it mean. I don't. I'm not going to punish her with. I think this is what people believe. They believe I'm going to punish you with the lack of relationship, and therefore that will be effective. Consequence, that's not good. Consequence. Let the act. Let the actions that they take be the consequence. Not. Don't let. I'm not the pun. I don't I'm not gonna punish you by my, the way I treat you. Yeah, right. You just lost your car. Yeah.

25:26
Tab Norris
You can't drive.

25:27
Tom Stanfill
It sucks that you can't drive.

25:28
Tab Norris
Yeah. I'm a big fan of the consequences thing. I mean, freedom to choose, baby. But, you know, like telling the kid, you know, you can do whatever you want if you do this is the consequence. I still love you. And some of my kids chose to sleep in the hallway, you know, I mean, that's fine. It's their choice. Whatever they want to do.

25:46
Tom Stanfill
Exactly.

25:47
Tab Norris
It's good.

25:48
Tom Stanfill
My anger is never the consequence. Yeah. So that keeps it. But I think going back to kind of where were leading with this, though, is when we get the opportunity. So we gotta let them share everything they want to share without overcoming invitation. And we gotta go. What is all the things you feel about? What do you think? What do you want?

26:10
Tab Norris
And now you're taking the trip, right?

26:12
Tom Stanfill
You're taking the trip. You're seeing their perspective. You bite your tongue, especially when they say stuff that's just ridiculous. And you're fear, because again, what you're doing is you're building your foundation to be hurt. You're building your platform, same as sales, as long as I can get you. And I, if I want to be able to feed it back to her. Like one time, my daughter, part of her consequence, she lost her car, and so she wouldn't drive her brother's car. And so it was ridiculous, you know, so I'm starting to think, okay, you're doing this because you just, you're spoiled or what? I don't know. It's just, it just really greated me because she didn't want to drive a lesser car. In her mind, I'm not going to be seen in that car.

26:56
Tom Stanfill
So it had that whole sort of, you know, like, rich person materialistic, and I just really rubbed me the wrong way. And so instead of attacking her and telling her she was wrong, I said, so what's going on with this? Why don't you want to drive the car? What's.

27:10
Tab Norris
Yeah, what's.

27:11
Tom Stanfill
She goes, because you don't understand. I said, well, try me. What don't I understand? She said, I don't have the confidence that Taylor and Christian have. I'm nobody. I said, they don't care what car they drive. I don't know who I am. Instead of when I drive in a car like that, I'm very insecure and I'm like, okay, that makes a lot of sense. So you don't feel like. You feel like you're going to be judged and people are going to reject you because you don't have a nice car. And she said, exactly. So you're learning, you know, like, instead of, hey, with my finger wagging and telling her, you need to drive that car and quit being now, that doesn't mean that I'm. It's. That doesn't mean I say, okay, well, you have to drive the car.

27:53
Tab Norris
Well, then let's get you a car that really makes you feel good about yourself. Dad. What would that be? Brand new porsche. That would be great.

28:00
Tom Stanfill
Let me. Yeah, I'm. Just do whatever you want. No, she still had to drive the car. Her options were drive that car, which was. I don't know what it was. I couldn't even remember. Maybe it was just an old junk. Somebody given it to Christian.

28:12
Tab Norris
Yeah.

28:13
Tom Stanfill
And. Or take the bus. She wouldn't do either one. I'm like, well, you got a problem.

28:18
Tab Norris
Yeah. You don't have to take a bike to school.

28:20
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. So I'm like, it's her problem. Well, you and I are fine. Like, did she get mad at me?

28:24
Tab Norris
Yeah.

28:25
Tom Stanfill
Well, I hate you. I'm saying, well, I love you, but you're still taking the bus for driving that car. Yeah. So. Yeah. So that was letting her talk about that. But here's the thing I think we struggle also with, and it's. The next thing is when we do have the opportunity to talk to her about, like, that situation or dating or sex or whatever it is that we want to talk about, that we need to talk about with our children.

28:49
Tab Norris
Yeah.

28:50
Tom Stanfill
I think this is the thing that most parents really miss. And also most salespeople miss, and most leaders miss. They can't start the sentence with because you. They start the sentence with. They say things like, you shouldn't do that, and let me. And that's just. They can't. They can't build a case. Why? It's in the child's best interest, the teenager's best interest not to do something.

29:12
Tab Norris
Yeah.

29:13
Tom Stanfill
They just say, don't do that, and they don't know why they can't. They have a do not versus a. Because you.

29:21
Tab Norris
Yeah.

29:21
Tom Stanfill
And I think that takes preparation, just like in a sales call. I remember. I remember having to talk to one of my kids, and I was traveling with my youngest, and I was preparing to meet with one of my older ones about something really important. Maybe going to college may have been something. And I spent. I got up really early because it was in California, it was early. And I spent like four or 5 hours thinking through how I could make this point, which had to do with the movie clip. And it was a lot of things I was working on. And Brett goes, what are you doing? I'm like, well, I'm preparing to talk to someone. So. And we started to. Well, he goes, well, tell me what you're doing. So we started talking about.

30:00
Tom Stanfill
He goes, so he, you know, were sitting there saying, why are you doing this? I said, well, because my meeting with Taylor is far more important than any meeting I ever have with a customer. And if I'm going to prepare for a customer meeting for 2 hours, I should prepare 3 hours for a meeting with my son. And I think that's like, we have call conversations about really important things rather than saying, what's the. How much time are we going to spend thinking about how to position this and how do we validate our recommendation and how do we get them to see it, what word pictures are we going to use and all of that. So I think that's really, if we get the invitation, don't blow it. That's another way to say that. Yeah.

30:38
Tab Norris
Get all the information you need. Make sure you put. You can say because you.

30:43
Tom Stanfill
That.

30:43
Tab Norris
I guess that's a litmus test, right? If you can't say because you. You don't have enough information.

30:47
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. If you can't position it in a way like what I would tell Tyndall or any of my kids, I said, what you want is lust. I mean, what you want is love, not lust. Lust kills love. I said, and so if you start doing certain things in relationships, it kills what you want. You want intimacy, and all of that other stuff kills intimacy. And so you don't know you want that, but that's what you want. And so when you do this other stuff over here, it actually destroys the very relationship that you want. Well, what do you mean by that? Dad and I could explain it to them versus just don't do that.

31:19
Tab Norris
Yeah.

31:20
Tom Stanfill
And so that takes a lot. I mean, a lot of the answers. Like, why shouldn't I drink? Yeah, well, because the law says you can't. Oh, well, that's very motivating.

31:31
Tab Norris
Right, right.

31:32
Tom Stanfill
You know, and so I was able to tell our kids, if you want this, you won't get that if you drink. And so it was an easy way. Now, some kids didn't care. I mean, some of my kids were like, I'm not drinking. Okay, cool. I had. I had I had one that was like, I'm drinking.

31:50
Tab Norris
Yeah.

31:50
Tom Stanfill
So we had to, you know, so it was like, what am I going to say about that? Especially if it's very obvious to us.

31:57
Tab Norris
Yeah.

31:57
Tom Stanfill
You know, so I think it's part of, that's prep. Part of it's thinking through it, and you may have to talk to other people, but don't have. Don't blow the meeting or the opportunity because you're not ready. If you can't fill in the. Because you.

32:10
Tab Norris
Yeah.

32:12
Tom Stanfill
Then you're not ready. Delay it.

32:16
Tab Norris
Yeah, that's good. So is that it? Am I done? Is that.

32:24
Tom Stanfill
I would say. I got one other thing. I would say that's all my. And I think this is something that hit me a couple of years ago that I think really captures kind of what we do with customers and with what we should do with customers and we should do with our children. And I said this earlier, but take a punch.

32:45
Tab Norris
Yeah.

32:45
Tom Stanfill
Right. If. If you get punched because they say something negative about you. My dad was great about this. So was my mom. I think to feel like I punched my. My dad more than my mom. And when I mean that, I'm obviously speaking metaphorically, but, like, they say something, they attack you. Verbally attack you. They put you down. They say, I hate you. They.

33:08
Tab Norris
Yeah.

33:08
Tom Stanfill
As soon as you metaphorically punch back, you lose all opportunity of influence. Now everything is going to be focused on your punch. Well, yeah, but you're a little spoiled brat, you know, or whatever you say.

33:22
Tab Norris
Right.

33:23
Tom Stanfill
If you can take the punch and love through that and let them sit with that. I just told my father I hated him and he still loved me. Yeah. He still wants to be with me. He still didn't respond. And that has such weight. And it's same with our customers. I've been punched by customers, too. I've been punched really hard by customers, you know, that will like. And I put all this effort, and they said. And they said things to me that I really hurt my feelings.

33:53
Tab Norris
Yeah.

33:54
Tom Stanfill
And I'm not saying they were wrong. Maybe part of it was wrong, but it felt like a punch to me. And to be able to say, okay, tell me what you're thinking. Why did you say that? Let me understand. I'm not going to punch back. I mean, I've had people want to punch the customer for me.

34:09
Tab Norris
Right.

34:10
Tom Stanfill
I'm not going to take that. I'm like, okay, yeah. I remember one time flying to California to meet with a senior vice president. I think I mentioned this on a podcast earlier, we did all this work and all this prep and all these people, and we walked in and we made this presentation were told to be making the first, and the guy just basically punched me right in the face, said, I have no idea what anything you just said relates to me whatsoever.

34:33
Tab Norris
Right.

34:33
Tom Stanfill
Like, that hurt a little bit of time in it. Yeah. I mean, I did everything everybody told me to do. I mean, I. It felt like a punch. The guy that was traveling with me started punching back.

34:46
Tab Norris
Yeah.

34:47
Tom Stanfill
And I'm like, it's got it. And I think that's, Have you got any experience with that? You know what I'm talking about?

34:56
Tab Norris
Totally. I mean, I just had this the other day. I mean, the. We got a, we got some feedback, and it was. Somebody on our team was basically kind of punched.

35:08
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

35:08
Tab Norris
And I wanted to punch them back. You know, they basically said, well.

35:15
Tom Stanfill
You.

35:15
Tab Norris
Know, they said they didn't do exactly what they did. You know what I mean? Like we said, we need this. This is how we need to set up prior to. And we need these things done. Clearly communicated, said they would, said it would be done. And then as soon as it's post, it's like, yeah, you know what? Moving forward, you should. Your team should do a better job of really setting that up. So where we do that before any launch and what do you want to say? You want to punch back? We did that, and you're an idiot. And you did exactly what opposite of what? But that's not going to help anybody. And I was proud of my coworker that they took the punch and I took the punch and we just said, great advice. Great advice.

36:04
Tom Stanfill
And there's a way that you can respond it that you. Doesn't mean you don't defend what you did or doesn't mean you don't, but here's the thing. If you. They punched and you punched and they punched and you punched, and they, like, by the time you're done, nobody knows what happened.

36:20
Tab Norris
Well, and there's no reason, like, that was a perfect example. There's no reason to, because that person knows that we're. They know. It's like they did not know.

36:28
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

36:29
Tab Norris
I think it's more powerful when you don't punch back because they're just like.

36:32
Tom Stanfill
Wow, that's exactly right. I remember my daughter one time said to me, she said, well, you're supposed to pay for college. You're my father, or you're supposed to pay for my car. You're supposed to. I can't believe I'm like, I was like, I wanted to go, you selfish, you know, I mean, I wanted to say something, and I'm like. And as soon as I said something, all she would go is he called me that, or he said that, or he.

36:56
Tab Norris
That's what she remember.

36:57
Tom Stanfill
And then that's all she wouldn't even know what she said. Yeah. So that is that you gotta, if you do that, like you said, the weight of what they're doing and saying rest on them. Yeah. And the end of the story is, I remember my daughter came back from college after her first year. It was Christmas. I'll never forget where were sitting there. And I guess I kind of can close with this is went around and talked about what were grateful for the year. And she said, she went last, I was not ready for this. And she said, I am grateful for unconditional love. And I mean, it was, it was a moment because, you know, were all kind of had that sort of philosophy with her. Again, this was all taught to us by other people.

37:43
Tab Norris
Yeah.

37:43
Tom Stanfill
Mostly our parents. But the power of loving somebody unconditionally, do not underestimate the moment. Might be they want to do something scary, but the big picture is if you love them unconditionally, and when I mean conditionally, I'm unconditionally, I mean, there is no condition and where your relationship would be damaged by what they, no matter you think of the worst thing they do. And acceptance doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but that acceptance, like when they walk in the room, you have a response. It always be delightful.

38:17
Tab Norris
Yeah.

38:18
Tom Stanfill
When my daughter walked in the room or my son walked in the room, my response, regardless of what the punch they threw, regardless of what behavior, my response should always be delight. The consequences to what they are doing should be connected to what they're doing. It's not, it has nothing to do with me. So my relationship is never going to be leveraged. And so I think that if we can do that over time, this is, I can tell this from experience, over time, they will do what you want them to do, and they will listen to your advice if it's the truth. And the focus is you want to deliver the truth.

38:52
Tab Norris
Yeah. Great stuff, Tom.

38:55
Tom Stanfill
All right. Beautiful, beautiful. I love it, man. Well, great. Love the topic. Hope that helps some of our listeners and, you know, give us some feedback, tell us what you want us to talk about. If you like the podcast, let us know. It helps other people find us and also gives us. It motivates us to continue to do this. So thanks, tab. Good to see you, my friend.

39:16
Tab Norris
You too.