Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.

The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.

The following are notes from Ep. 184 – What Does Gratitude Have To Do With Sales Pt. II

Today Tom and Tab are in part two with John Cerqueira where we dive into how fear sabotages our ability to sell. John guides us through having the right headspace so that we can have clarity to serve, connect well to others, and be present with clients. His approach gives us great insight on not linking our outcomes to our identity no matter how the meeting goes.

If you want to know more about John or connect with him you can reach out at  john@pinwheelassociates.com 

Listen to the conversation here:

Or read along here

00:13
Tom Stanfill
Tab. Welcome back in the studio. Although now I don't really need to, I don't know, welcome you.

00:21
Tab Norris
It's probably no, you don't have to welcome. But I always feel I love being welcomed. I enjoy that. It makes me feel special. I'm always looking for little ways I can feel special.

00:31
Tom Stanfill
Well, what I love about our podcast tab, it guarantees you I will see you on a pretty consistent basis and we get to hang out band.

00:40
Tab Norris
It's been great for our relationship, it really has. So thank you, everyone, our sponsors and all.

00:46
Tom Stanfill
Maybe we should have to do a podcast with our wives.

00:51
Tab Norris
It would greatly improve that relationship.

00:52
Tom Stanfill
I'll see you every Friday at 1230 for an hour. I know we're just running so fast. So I love that we have this time to kind of step back and talk about important things. And this definitely podcast is definitely one of those important topics. If you missed part one with John Cerqueira where he talks about how our emotional state determines whether we are going to perform at our highest level, which again, is a surprising truth to because, you know, we kind of believe what is emotions. Just john calls it self regulation. Showing up as our best just isn't a knowledge thing. Don't we just need to know what to do and say and how to act and know our process? Isn't that going to lead us to the highest level performance? And he pretty much in part one proved that's not true.

01:45
Tab Norris
Yeah, it was really powerful. And I think we talked about this a little bit on the last one that I was a little skeptical and I was just blown away by the truth. We've seen it. He's transformed. He's a perfect example of doing what he's talking about. And you can see the change in his life.

02:08
Tom Stanfill
You definitely can. As I mentioned in part one, I've had dinner with him and he's a different human. And actually he should be more fearful because he's starting his own company. Right. He has all the pressures of making this next entrepreneurial venture work. He's starting from scratch. He'd been at ASLAN for ten years and he had a pipeline and he knew exactly what to do. Yet he is more light and more free and more effective and communicates more effectively than I think than he did than when he was with ASLAN. So love this episode where he in first episode, he impact the first step, which was gratitude. And if you think, oh, why don't you listen to part one, I don't need to hear about gratitude.

02:55
Tom Stanfill
He says some surprising things about gratitude that I wrote down and I tucked away and it changed me instantly. So this episode he talks about the next two. So you're going to be in for a treat. So enjoy this next episode with John where he talks about how do we manage our emotional state?

03:18
Tab Norris
Can I ask a question? I'm Mr. Practical over here. Can you just kind of because I could talk about this stuff for days.

03:27
John Cerqueira
I love it.

03:27
Tab Norris
I get so fired up about it. I'm sitting here going, okay, can just bring it down to the level of I'm a sales guy, and I'm just a normal old sales guy, fabulous person, and I'm not hitting my number. I'm feeling stressed. I'm doing all this, and I just heard I need to be grateful. Can you get a little more tactical for me?

03:48
John Cerqueira
Oh, yeah.

03:49
Tab Norris
Just how do It? What does that look like?

03:51
John Cerqueira
Yeah, when I work with sales organizations, salespeople usually it's some version of let's figure out, hey, I know you have a goal to hit.

04:03
Tom Stanfill
Okay.

04:05
John Cerqueira
What is working in your favor? Let's start there. Okay, right. Because oftentimes there's the exercise as we're talking of playing kind of devil's advocate of, all right, you don't think you're going to hit your goal? All right, well, what are you going to do? Quit? Okay, well, let's guarantee we're not going to hit our goal. Is that what you mean? So I guess if you're pretty sure you're not going to hit that goal, if that's the guarantee, I probably wouldn't do what you're doing much longer. Is that what your answer is? No, it's not. Okay, well, give me some reasons why you can hit your goal. Give me some reasons why maybe what led you up to this point makes you confident or gives you any confidence that you can hit it?

04:47
John Cerqueira
If you had to interview for your job today, why would you if I'm your leader and you're interviewing with me, why would you tell me that you still should keep your job? And now they start getting into, well, I've done this in the past, and I was successful at this point, or I've been working really hard, or I've got a nice pipeline, or I just went to a training, or I found that I started reading the sales book, whatever it is, or I like my product. It's like, hey, do you think this product is viable? Do you think there's at least appropriate product market fit? Because your organization is asking you to do a thing and derived a goal not completely out of thin air. The company exists because there's likely a need for what this company does in the market.

05:36
John Cerqueira
Can we reflect on that? And now we start getting into, oh, here are all the reasons why I'm in a position to at least try.

05:46
Tab Norris
So it's positive, and it's about finding things you can be grateful about, because that is what you're saying. These are things that you can be grateful for, that you do have these strengths, and then you do have these capabilities. And that I love that because you're right. I just lose sight of that because all I'm doing is what you said, I'm narrowing in on that problem and it's just all consuming. So you answer my question. That's excellent.

06:15
John Cerqueira
Awesome.

06:16
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. There's a saying that if you focus on the problem expands. If you focus on the solution expands. And fear, as you said earlier, is focused on the problem and what the consequences of the you become sucked into that. And John, is it true statement to say sometimes people just need help getting out of the room that they're know because sometimes you are so overwhelmed? I really did my mental. I've never shared this, I don't think with anybody. But I feel like sometimes we get in rooms and all we see is what's in that room. And that room is problems and failure and identity issues. And sometimes we just have to call somebody and say, can you come get me? And I don't really mean that literally, but I have to call somebody and say, Help me. Right. All I'm seeing this.

07:09
Tom Stanfill
I need help getting out of this room because I'm just overwhelmed and I cannot be grateful whatever it is that's keeping me from moving in the right direction.

07:23
John Cerqueira
1000% the value of coaching in this context is very simply serving as someone else's auxiliary awareness.

07:33
Tom Stanfill
Okay?

07:34
John Cerqueira
You don't have to know anything much more than the person you're coaching or anything. It's just saying, hey, let's unpack what is going on and let's start orienting towards this. We know that the exercise of gratitude is proven, literally proven to get you in a better headspace so that you can figure out what the next right thing is to do. Let's work on that together. And so from a self regulation perspective, there are exercises that when I'll teach this to say, hey, while we're in the workshop, here's an exercise to, for example, think about the next time that you're going to get stressed out because it usually happens in a pattern. What can you right now decide that you're going to remember to be grateful for when that thing happens again? So you've already developed it.

08:21
John Cerqueira
While we have clarity of mind now and then you just draw on that as a little wedge, a little lifeline. And there are other exercises around curating, meditations around this. But yeah, oftentimes that's what's happening. When our reptilian brain is feeling stressed and we're focused on the problem, we feel stuck. We see stuck again. Our vision gets narrow, our world gets smaller.

08:46
Tom Stanfill
And this really is a discipline. Yeah, this is a discipline thing. I've actually been meditating every morning for probably the last four or five months. Might be related to this lighter thing. I've been going through Psalm 23 and I have visualization related to each verse and I cannot tell you how it changes part of it. Guess what? You refresh my soul, I think is what it is. I can't do it out of order, but you refresh me basically, is that I'm refreshed by God. And I stop there and I start listing the things that I'm grateful for. That's part of my meditation. I force myself to say, and it's the same thing.

09:37
Tom Stanfill
I feel lighter sticking with theme, and I see the fear start to go, especially if I've had a night where the fear has creeped in, because that's sometimes where it tax me, because I'm not able to consciously rewire my thoughts. But that tells me it's invaded me. The fear has made its way, and it's got a little home there. And so it's a discipline every day to fight that. And if we just wander through life as if our mind, our perspective, our mindset, I guess our emotional state just happens to us and we have no control, we're going to get in a bad place.

10:16
John Cerqueira
Yeah, you operate with kind of automatic responses. The concept of mindfulness very simply is not to be some super woo exercise. It's simply the exercise of watching your thoughts, being aware of your thoughts, and recognizing that your thoughts are not you. These things that we tell ourselves, self talk, I'm not good enough. This isn't going to work. This is all coming down on me. Those are narratives.

10:47
Tom Stanfill
I don't have the ability to figure this out. I'm stupid, I can't do this.

10:53
John Cerqueira
So there's that piece, and now you can tamp that down. So now you can feel connected through serving, because that's the idea. Besides this reciprocal relationship, once you move from gratitude, now you move to service, which is really the exercise of once you have clarity of mind, recognizing what's needed in a moment, what serves the moment, and what capability you have to serve that. And now you're really in a mode of flowing energy from where you have it oftentimes, where you got it to where it's needed. And now you start feeling connected. And that's the feeling when you were talking about feeling more charismatic and more funny and listening, when you're doing that, it's the active kind of getting in the idea of flow state. It's the active present. I'm present, I'm aligned. Like, I feel this, I got it, and you're lit up.

11:47
John Cerqueira
And then the last piece of that is once you do that, now our fear creeps up around the future. So once I've done the thing, now we're like, all right, I did that thing. Now what? And there's always that, now what? And so fear of the future creeps up. That starts driving what you've heard of scarcity mindset and attachment to outcome. I did a thing. What's going to happen now? I need it to go my way. And so the antidote to that is simply, and there's a lot of different words for it, is leaning into an abundance mindset, which as you start, you're talking about your morning meditation practice and Psalm 23.

12:25
John Cerqueira
A lot of the abundance mindset is the idea that, hey, I can let go because I'm going to assume that all things equal, the universe is conspiring in my favor and not the other way around. And that starts looking like in a faith based setting, it's faith. Everything's going to work out in a more science oriented way. This is the value of how that works at Aslam. We would teach about the Raz. The Raz, the subconscious mechanism in your brain that tells you what to pay attention to and what not to pay attention to. Well, we teach that at Aslam in the context of how we can resonate with a decision maker's Raz, what's on their mind so that when we say it activates that Raz. Well, there's the other side of developing your own Raz, or I'm sorry, working your own Raz.

13:22
John Cerqueira
Meaning if our natural tendency is to be fear based, when we look at the future, our natural tendency is to calculate all the things that can go wrong, which then gives us this set, if we have enough time, this infinite set of things that can go wrong. Where, to your point, if we focus on the problem or an ever evolving number of problems, then we're going to start setting our Raz to keep focusing on more problems, and things are going to get desire. Yeah. If I focus myself on visualizing, here's what I want, or even just here's what the feeling of this free future state will feel for me. Now we can start rewiring our own Raz to look for the things that are more likely to get us and shift our micro actions to getting us to where we want to be.

14:14
Tab Norris
No, it's so true. I was just listening to a podcast the other day, and it was talking about because I do that. Most of us do that right. Worst case scenarios. You start running them and it's like, instead it's what if it worked out? That's your automatic first thought, what if it works out? Versus, Whoa, what if it all goes wrong? Because that's what my tendency is to gosh. If this doesn't go right, this could happen, and that could happen, and it just runs. I agree with you.

14:47
John Cerqueira
Well, it's not only our tendency. We have as a society, as a professional society, put so much value on someone's ability to predict all the bad things that will happen so that they're better prepared on deals. I would do this. I remember you and I would be talking about a deal strategy.

15:07
Tom Stanfill
You were very good at that.

15:08
John Cerqueira
And you would say things like, I'm like, well, this can go wrong and this can go wrong, and that person's probably going to block it. And you'd say, hey, in a very sweet way, as I'm probably spinning out at the time, you're like, hey, I really respect your what did you say? It was something around, like, your paranoia.

15:28
Tom Stanfill
Your ability to see what could go wrong. Yeah, paranoia. Maybe that's what I said. I think that's a good we need to put that hat on at times.

15:36
John Cerqueira
Yeah, you do. And so there's value in an executive. He says, hey, the executive's job is two things. It's clear communication of what the plan is and scenario planning for all the things that could go wrong. Good for you.

15:54
Tom Stanfill
Good for you. Congratulations on being an executive. Yeah.

15:58
John Cerqueira
I would spend so much time personally, and I've see this in nearly everyone I work with, I see this almost like a badge of honor to say, well, I can calculate all the things that will go wrong, so we're better prepared.

16:10
Tom Stanfill
Right?

16:10
John Cerqueira
Fabulous. But why don't we spend a little bit of time feeling like this will work? Why don't we spend a little bit of time playing out? Like, here's what it looks like when I get over the finish line. I wrestled in high school for a little bit. I was not good at it.

16:24
Tom Stanfill
I wasn't good. I'm sure you were great. Right, Tab?

16:26
John Cerqueira
I was not.

16:26
Tom Stanfill
I'm sure.

16:27
John Cerqueira
And this quote from my coach, which was probably said to me because I wasn't that good at it, really sticks in my mind when we talk about this topic. He would say, I need you to get more excited about winning than you are scared of losing.

16:41
Tab Norris
There you go.

16:42
Tom Stanfill
I like, is that grips so many? Really? Why do you think that is, John? Why do you think? Because some people are just wired to be positive. Tab is one of those people. I would say I was one of those people until probably the last five years. I think I'm now a little bit more wired to be negative. I think this is becoming something I'm having to work on. Before you've worked with me. I think being getting older, whatever, it doesn't really matter. But why does it matter that some people are more wired to it or we just all have to address it as it raises its ugly head?

17:28
John Cerqueira
Yeah, like a lot of things, we're all on a spectrum of more positive to more negative. But going back to our wiring, our evolutionary wiring, if you just think about it, in our ability to adapt as humans, without modern technology, in what had been a hostile environment, it is of greater value. You will get a greater ROI, so to speak, from making sure you avoid danger than you would from getting excited about things going well in a threat resource scarce environment. Right. It's like, hey, man, if were all wired to be like, this is great. I don't have a job. There's food over here. This is abundant. I could do this thing. We would all die. We would have died.

18:24
Tom Stanfill
I think we're fine.

18:26
Tab Norris
It's all going to be good. I'll just bump into a tiger, I'll kill it with my hands.

18:32
Tom Stanfill
It'll be good.

18:33
John Cerqueira
Yeah, that's it. Our survival instinct warrants that we predict the future in terms of what's negative so we can avoid it. The trick is, and this is where it really becomes a practice, it's a mindfulness practice, of saying, okay, I have sufficiently predicted the likely scenarios that could go wrong, and I have sufficiently mitigated those risks. Now let's turn that survival.

19:05
Tom Stanfill
So there is a practical stage. Do the work, do the planning.

19:10
John Cerqueira
Yeah. Get your insurance, hit your quota, do the work. Plan for a presentation, do that. But once you have done it, now be like, I did that work. Now let's get excited about what it's going to feel like when we win. Let's get excited about what it feels like when we're in a presentation and everyone's nodding their head and everyone's on board. You act different when you're coming off a winning streak. Your chest is puffed out. Your vibration is at a different level than when you're selling scared or you're presenting scared or any of that. And so get your vibration there. It is a practice.

19:53
Tom Stanfill
Okay, so I got to ask this question because you're my practical guy, but I think this is a good practical question. And then I want to ask one personal question. You think about the presentation. I think that's a really easy thing to hone in on, because that's where I think in sales, we get most nervous. Or if you're a frontline manager and you're part of that process, it's like, this is the big one.

20:15
John Cerqueira
Oh, yeah.

20:17
Tom Stanfill
And we've done the prep because it's the big one, which because it's the big one, it means I'm going to be the most terrified of losing. Right? Small ones are like, yeah, whatever. Maybe I don't prep, and that's my problem, but maybe the fear doesn't creep in. But this is the big one. We've done the prep. So I'm going to save some space. I'm going to follow John's advice. I'm going to save some space to work on self regulation so I can show up in an other centered way, as we would say, with a servant mentality. And I'm my full, total self, and I'm present, and I'm working. So what do I do to self regulate, and when do It before the big presentation?

20:53
John Cerqueira
Oh, I love that. That's my favorite. We'll review just the steps of gratitude, service, and abundance. Okay, so I'm getting ready. We're ready to do the meeting. That is something that I think is very easy to be grateful for, even as you fear the reason you need self regulation is because you're grasping at you want to win this thing, which is the other side of the coin of what if I don't win this thing? So you're fighting that. What if I don't win? To get yourself regulated. So that's where we lean into gratitude. Hey, I have this experience. We've been asked to this dance. I know the problem. I know how to solve it. I can speak from my like, I'm ready to do this or how about this? I'm going in with my team, and I rely on that.

21:54
John Cerqueira
When we would go in presentation, like, Tom's got this part, I've got this part, tav's got this part, mark's got this part, and I just really believed in my team. Those are all the things that say, we've got all this working in our favor. Now we move to I'm grateful.

22:07
Tom Stanfill
I'm grateful for what my team I'm grateful for the opportunity. I'm grateful for what we've done in the past. That's it, right? We've been grateful that we're successful. We're grateful that we've been successful in situation. I'm choosing to focus on the positive things that have happened to this point. Is that what I'm no doubt.

22:29
John Cerqueira
Right?

22:29
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Okay.

22:30
John Cerqueira
And even with the scenario of, hey, remember that time? Because we've all had in sales a dry period where we're like, man, nobody's even talked, no one's picking up the phone, no one's responding. And so oftentimes when I'm in that scenario, I'll go back to, hey, remember that one time where no one wanted to talk to you? Isn't this better? Wouldn't you have wanted this to be the case? Isn't this the perfect scenario that you were hoping for?

22:55
Tom Stanfill
It's really reframing it.

22:56
John Cerqueira
It's absolutely reframing. Now we move into service. This is what serves the moment. Where can I move energy from where I have it to where it's most needed? That might be, hey, I'm going to do a little more research on this solution. I'm going to have some conversation with my coaches. I'm going to have a conversation with oftentimes there's a champion who's brought you in and saying, hey, I want to make sure this presentation goes well for you, whether we win it or not. I want to make sure that you look good by bringing us to the table. So help me understand that then. You're serving the moment through the preparation, through the prep, with the team, the coordination, the choreography you're focused on instead.

23:37
Tom Stanfill
Of you losing or winning, which is a self centered, fear based response, you then come to me and say, how can I help you? Or, I could be doing that for you, versus being focused on whatever it is that I'm focused on.

23:52
John Cerqueira
Exactly. And now you're getting more open. You're operating as your best self. You're saying, gosh, oh, I thought about this. Or, now those are the opportunities when we would do these presentations, that would bring up some creative, fun ways to make the presentation interesting. Right?

24:10
Tom Stanfill
Because our brain is working.

24:11
John Cerqueira
Your brain is working, and you're having fun, and you're hitting on all cylinders. And so now you've done the prep, and you're ready to go in or I'm sorry, you've done the prep. You've done as much as you've got to do. Now we've got the fear of the future kicking up, am I going to win? What if this doesn't go well? What if I didn't prepare enough? Now we move into the excitement, this abundance mindset, which is two parts. It's confidence that you're worthy of this opportunity. It's confidence that the universe wants you to be happy. There's also, conversely, and this is tough, this is the double axle towards the end is non attachment. I believe I am worthy of this opportunity. I believe we have prepared for this.

25:03
John Cerqueira
I can feel what it's going to be like to be hitting on all cylinders in that presentation. I can feel what it's going to be like to work with these people. I'm not operating out of fear. I'm operating out of excitement and hope and energy, but also not to the extent that I get so attached to that feeling that I get scared of losing it. Because I've heard people say, even I've said this, right, I don't want to count the chickens for his hatch. Like the deal is not done before it's signed. Don't get too cocky. Yeah, I get it, but get excited about it. You're doing a thing, you're selling yourself, you're influencing others. Get excited about it, but stop just short of feeling like you're owed a debt and it's yours to lose, that's great.

25:53
John Cerqueira
But they'll be like, this has to be mine because that's when fear creeps up.

25:58
Tom Stanfill
It's too much to lose, there's too much at stake.

26:01
Tab Norris
It's so much more fun when you just I'm 100% with you and it's.

26:05
John Cerqueira
Like.

26:08
Tab Norris
You'Re going to give it everything you got. All you can do is the inputs and then you can't drive the outcome. It's going to be what it is. Just give it all you got and there is freedom in that. You're prepared. You're grateful. My thing that I do is I really like this idea, the service thing, because what I do is I have a little mantra every time.

26:30
John Cerqueira
I knew you would.

26:32
Tab Norris
I'm a mantra guy. Where as I'm going in, I'm walking into the meeting and I'm starting to and I will say, just remember, this.

26:39
Tom Stanfill
Is all about them.

26:40
Tab Norris
This is not about me. And it doesn't matter what I look like. It doesn't matter if they think I'm impressive. Who gives a rat's ass, right? I mean, it just doesn't matter. And if I just go in there and serve them, we're going to be good. And it's just like a freeing kind of thing, even to the point and I told me, I know and you've done it too, where you say things like, hey, I really want to help you make a great decision. I want to work with you. Of course I want you to be my client. I mean, I just said this the other day and I said, but I want you to make a wise decision, period. That just sets me up and I mean it. I'm not just BSing. I really mean it.

27:19
Tab Norris
So I do think that feeds right into what you're saying.

27:23
John Cerqueira
It absolutely does. When you're operating from I really want the best for you. I'm excited for you. I want to help you. And yes, it'd be great if I get something out of it, but I've got to shut that part of my brain off and say, this is all about you, and I'm excited about it, and I can't wait to work together. We're going to talk as if were already working together.

27:47
Tab Norris
There you go. That's it.

27:50
John Cerqueira
Until this decision, you don't owe me anything.

27:54
Tab Norris
Yeah, that's that non attachment thing is.

27:56
Tom Stanfill
If you say it, you will follow your words. I found if I say that, if I'm struggling with that belief, but I say it, and maybe I don't say it to the client. I say it to you, John. If we're prepping for the like or I say it to the client at the beginning, I say this is my goal today. I feel myself start to buy into that truth totally. Like, I feel my body shift, I feel my nervousness release, and I start to go, okay, that's true. And I also see how they respond to it well.

28:31
John Cerqueira
And here's what you brought up. This is the core. Yes, you are much more likely to be influential and get what you want when you're being other centered. Got it. That's the payoff. What is not emphasized enough, I think, in all of us who are aware of that relationship of it's better to give than receive. Best way to have a friend is to be a friend is you literally feel better when you are operating, way you become when you are serving someone else and suppressing what you get out of it. That survival instinct. That's about, I need to protect myself. The world is out to get me. The world is hostile to me. That's not a comfortable feeling. When you are serving someone else, you feel connected to that person. You feel more home, more there's, like.

29:26
Tom Stanfill
Love in the room. There's something bigger meta happening than a war fighting for resources. No. We're human beings on the planet all trying to kind of work together, and that's bigger and better. I think one of the bearing you talk about non attachment, I think that's huge. And I want to, as we close, kind of want you to talk about not attaching it to your identity because I think it's easier to not attach it to your financial well being. Right. Because obviously that's important. But for me, I feel like my attachments are greater to what does it say about me if I fail? And I remember struggling with this more when I would bring you guys in, or better said, you would bring me in. Yeah, to help your deal. Tom, will you present or Tab would bring me tab probably smarter.

30:22
Tom Stanfill
He wouldn't bring me in as much.

30:23
John Cerqueira
But.

30:26
Tom Stanfill
John's a little more naive. Or he just loved me more.

30:29
John Cerqueira
I did. I have fun? It was all party.

30:31
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

30:32
John Cerqueira
I felt.

30:32
Tom Stanfill
That nervousness. My nervousness would increase as I was brought in to make that because I didn't want to let you down. And really what I was really saying, I think what's really happening is you would feel less about you would respect me less or less significant. I would be less important. It's really still self centered. Yeah, but it's about me. Like, I'm too attached. My identity is attached to the deal. How do I address that?

31:05
John Cerqueira
Honestly? It's not that much different. The commission, once you win a deal and the perceived self worth increase are the same thing. They're both attaching to outcome. They're both saying it's making your value, your worth conditional upon something else.

31:35
Tab Norris
Yes. Either one.

31:37
Tom Stanfill
Either one in that category.

31:39
John Cerqueira
And that's what this whole structure is all about. In some meditation circles, spirituality circles, psychology circles, this is called ego work. Your ego is the story you tell yourself about yourself, and that is what our identity is. That's when people say, like, I am a sales executive, I am a CEO, I am a top performer. Worse, I am the top performer. Holy cow. What does that mean? All right, well, then if that's who I've told myself I am, and that's the mental model through which I see the world, then when those things are compromised, oh, man. That's when my survival your values. So this all is about ego work. And so yes, if there's something else, I mean, let's talk about a romantic relationship, right.

32:32
Tom Stanfill
Which not sales, but that's where it really shows up.

32:36
John Cerqueira
Yeah. I'm worried I'm going to be alone. If you're single. I'm worried I'm going to be alone. You're dating somebody. I'm worried they're going to break up with me. You're married. I'm worried they don't love me anymore. Okay, you're spinning out. Got it. Tamp down gratitude. What's going well? What's happening here? Right? Okay, now the serving is the exercise of getting out of your ego, because it's not about you. It's about someone else.

33:01
Tab Norris
That's good.

33:02
John Cerqueira
And it's not about what you get out of it. It's about you connecting and feeling aligned. So now when you do that, you become more expanded. You're expanding more. Your worth based on your identity is not tied into the outcome of that exercise. It's just indulging in the connectedness. And then once you've done whatever you were doing, that was the active service. Now it's that fear of the future that is what makes us look for the result of that active service. We're looking for some payment. We're holding a debt. And so that's the non attachment saying, guess what? I'm connecting and I'm flowing in. That way I don't need anything out of it. The commission, the reciprocity of love, the relationship to maintain.

33:53
John Cerqueira
I'm just going to keep doing this thing and trusting that if that's how I'm operating, it will all work out in the end. And guess what? The time frame of the end might be in the eternal end.

34:04
Tab Norris
Yeah.

34:07
John Cerqueira
This is all I can do well.

34:09
Tom Stanfill
And I also like to think about it negatively. I know the opposite of that. I'm going to crash and burn. Right. So if you can't hold on to the positive or you're struggling with the positive outcome, like relationally from an identity alone. No, really, if I lose this deal, I'm going to lose my job and I'm going to however you want to practically think about the negative outcome or you're like I just can't let it. All I know is that focus will sabotage the outcome that I want and that sometimes is motivation for me enough to not make it about me.

34:43
John Cerqueira
No doubt.

34:44
Tom Stanfill
Because even if my relationship does end, let's get really personal, even my relationship doesn't, I become much more of attractive a person. I will find the right person if I make it about them. And so it's going to work out because this is what were created to be and I'm created to serve. I am created to take my talents and what God has given me to help other people. That's why I'm great. So anything I'm moving in any direction opposite of that leads me in a path that is not good for me and other people and it's going to lead to something not positive. There's a better way to say that. But I have to ask you this question before we close because we need.

35:26
Tab Norris
To wrap this thing up.

35:27
Tom Stanfill
I know we need to wrap this. I can tell tabs like getting hungry.

35:31
John Cerqueira
Do people listen to this on end? Does this get edited?

35:35
Tom Stanfill
We know it's not edited but we could also tab we could turn this into two episodes.

35:40
Tab Norris
We may need to I think we could talk longer about this.

35:43
Tom Stanfill
I know. So I got to ask this question, John, because there's something that came up and I just have to hear. So we're talking to people, I think that have had big t trauma and you've had big t trauma and so is it different addressing this when you've been through a 911 type experience and if so, what would you share about how you navigated that maybe not?

36:12
John Cerqueira
Yeah, so that's an important topic. The learnings that I have are much more, I think, sound and business appropriate based on how I've applied them in my professional life. And candidly the story I tell is really about a burnout story that was well after 911. That was really about my being too attached to outcome and to my success and what my identity was relative to that. But I will say big caveat is hooching the type of things we're talking about in a professional context that's really about getting people from, I would say like a baseline of safety and psychological safety to improve. Right. We're all dealing with this kind of emotional undulation in our professional lives for people who have gone through true trauma, and that's defined differently for different people.

37:16
Tom Stanfill
Right.

37:17
John Cerqueira
There is merit in having some professionally medical psychology help. I mean, there's real trauma. There's a thought leader in this space, Jay Shetty. I don't know if you know Jay Shetty. He's a big, well known coach. Fabulous.

37:35
Tom Stanfill
Was he a monk for he was, yeah, a.

37:40
John Cerqueira
Monk and then worked for.

37:43
Tom Stanfill
I'm like, that's why I was like, this is cool. This is a great he's very magnetic.

37:47
John Cerqueira
And he has a role that anyone he coaches on an individual basis also has to have a therapist, a psychologist, psychiatrist, because there are some times if someone's gone through legitimate trauma, loss of life, near loss of life, loss of a loved one, and that's what they're dealing with. Get that level set there's got to get that level got to I am not purporting in any of my work to deal with anyone's deep seated childhood trauma around abuse or hard upbringing. Once that's solved and someone's at a safe level and I would say safe is they're not at risk of potentially taking their life or physically.

38:37
Tom Stanfill
They can self regulate hurting other people.

38:41
John Cerqueira
Now it's like, hey, now you have a job, and this is what you're dealing with, and you're at some threshold of safety. We're not here to solve the trauma, but there is persistent effect of that trauma, even once it's solved, in how your worldview evolves your professional and personal life.

39:02
Tom Stanfill
Got it. Okay, well, I think that's helpful. What I'm hearing you say is if you've been through big T trauma, that probably requires professional support, professional help to get you to a certain level before you can apply some of these tools that you're sharing. Do you have any last questions for our friend, our guest no. Our new thought leader and coach?

39:26
Tab Norris
Yeah, I'm writing like crazy. I got all these notes. That means it's a great podcast. I'm learning. I'm just absorbing. So, John, thank you so much, man.

39:37
Tom Stanfill
I'm so excited for you. I mean I mean, like, I just love that you're doing this. I can tell you wildly. I know you're already successful. I'm seeing your LinkedIn post, so I just think you're in the right space. My yeah. Very honored that you join us.

39:55
John Cerqueira
Well, thanks for kicking it off. I learned it by watching you. A lot of these conversations, I'm like, what do you mean? Oh, I guess I'm going to go figure this out to better at taking that advice. That's really the game.

40:10
Tab Norris
It was when I killed that lion, wasn't it, that one time you saw me do that.

40:14
John Cerqueira
That's right.

40:15
Tab Norris
That's probably had impact.

40:18
Tom Stanfill
Tell people how they can find you, John.

40:21
John Cerqueira
You can find me on what? You can email me at john at pinwheelassociates or you can go to Pinwheelassociates.com. That's my company name.

40:30
Tom Stanfill
Beautiful. Yeah, we'll post that as well, brother. I love you. I mean love you, brother. All right. Love you. Thank you for your message of what you're sharing. And everyone, thanks for joining us for another episode of Sales with Adeline.