Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.
The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.
The following are notes from Ep. Ep. 178 – 4 Habits of Successful Leaders – Part 2
In this episode of SALES with ASLAN, Tom and Tab continue their discussion on what habits make leaders successful, effective, and able to ignite and drive change in their organizations.
Listen to the conversation here:
Or check out the full transcript:
00:14
Tom Stanfill
Welcome back to the studio for another episode of Sales with Aslan, which is formerly known as Ales with Aslan. for some of our longtime listeners.
00:24
Tab Norris
Well, yes some listeners bring that up.
00:27
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. So I’m willing to start drinking again.
00:30
Tab Norris
Yeah, I think we may want to. I think maybe what we do is just maybe let’s just say one good order.
00:41
Tom Stanfill
I say we start drinking. Well, the problem was we’d have, like, a podcast at 08:00 a.m. On a Friday morning, and I’m like, we’re faking drinking beers. And it just felt disingenuous.
00:55
Tab Norris
And if I did drink the beer, then I got sluggish and no good the rest of the day. And I don’t like that, so I get it. But maybe someday maybe we’ll have special occasions.
01:03
Tom Stanfill
I think we need to have a special occasion, I think we do. Because you can’t spell sales without Ales. That’s a principle. And I think we should go back to that. But I’m off topic. So we’re back in the studio to record part Deux. I think the Deux is french.
01:26
Tab Norris
Fluent in French?
01:27
Tom Stanfill
I’m fluid in French. I speak French fluidly. And we’re talking about we got together Tab. So that for those of you who just join us for Part B is we focus on the four habits of successful sales leaders. What are the successful sales leaders doing now? Not to be confused with the seven habits of highly effective people, which apply to all people at all times, but this is the four habits you’re seeing from all the work that you’re doing with the thousands of breaths. We work with hundreds of leaders, and so we’re sharing that remind us of what habit one was.
02:07
Tab Norris
Yeah, if you remember, and if you don’t go back and listen. I do remember the last I know you do, but the number one habit that we really drilled into last time was leaders are other centered. They are other centered, and they serve more. And we talked a little bit about how we naturally gravitate to self. We have to make this choice. And I thought we had some really good conversation about that. We got to care more, so we learn more. So we do more. What we did is we drove home that care is really critical because if we don’t care, we’re not going to do any of the rest of it. And you can’t fake care.
02:49
Tom Stanfill
It’ll be fake.
02:50
Tab Norris
Yeah. And so really important and what I loved is how we double clicked into learn. You shared a little bit about we talked about you can learn about people’s personality styles, you can learn about their you can learn about all kind of things from your team. But what I love, Tom, is what you dug into around the six needs of sellers.
03:13
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, the six critical needs. Just like selling is about meeting needs, leading is about meeting needs. And if we want our team to we want them to have the desire to stay and the desire to change. We need to understand the six critical needs. So yeah, if you didn’t catch that episode, go back to listen to the unpacking of the six critical needs. I also want to highlight one thing about the serve more.
03:35
Tab Norris
Okay.
03:35
Tom Stanfill
Because some people might hear more and what does more mean? More means more than they expect. Right. So whatever they expect do more. They don’t expect you to care about their family or maybe what they’re going through personally or about the stupid story that they’re telling. Not that there’s ever a stupid story or insignificant, so obviously it’s not stupid, but an insignificant story. But it’s more than they expect. So I love that. So yeah, that was a good I think were, I don’t think they said this on air, but we probably thought were going to get through more than one.
04:11
Tab Norris
Yeah, we did.
04:12
Tom Stanfill
It’s so rich.
04:13
Tab Norris
It was. And I’m glad we stopped where we did. So we covered number one really well, and we’re going to cover the last three.
04:21
Tom Stanfill
Well, you never know. Tab. You never know.
04:23
Tab Norris
That is I’m being very bold right there. We’re going to give it a shot. We’re going to at least get two. I know, that beautiful.
04:32
Tom Stanfill
So we’ll have it habit number two.
04:36
Tab Norris
Is successful sales managers. They have weekly connection.
04:44
Tom Stanfill
Weekly connections, yeah.
04:45
Tab Norris
And sometimes it’s even daily, but it’s not we connect occasionally. It is a state of connection. And I’d say weekly even.
05:01
Tom Stanfill
What do you mean by state of connection? I like that.
05:04
Tab Norris
A state of connection. Like you’re available, your team knows you’re available. And it’s funny, I’ll work with a lot of sales leaders. I talk to the salespeople, I get to know them. And you’ll hear that sometimes it’s like, man, I just feel like my leader is with me always there, available, I mean, always looking at ways to coach me. And then I’ll hear other people say, well, they’re out there. But a lot of times I just have a hard time getting in touch with them or I feel like I’m.
05:38
Tom Stanfill
They got to reach out to them versus they’re staying connected.
05:42
Tab Norris
Yeah, they’re not staying connected. You know what I mean?
05:44
Tom Stanfill
It’s not a natural thing for me.
05:46
Tab Norris
Okay. I’m just thinking of the person that I’m managing right now. I’ll just ping, just shoot a quick text. Hey, how’s it going today? There’s this state of connection. That’s probably a good way to put.
06:00
Tom Stanfill
That, especially virtually because when were in the same office, if that’s the shift for you’ve moved from office to where you see people naturally to virtual. For those of people that are managing a field sales force, that’s probably a very obviously you didn’t see them all the time, but if you’re inside sales or whatever in their home now, that could be a big shift.
06:22
Tab Norris
Yeah, because think about how easy it was when were all in an office wandering around and you pop in the cubicle and you pop in an office and you grab lunch. It just created connection. So I agree with that. And what I thought Tom and I wanted you to go into this a little bit more, if you don’t mind, because you brought up those needs, the needs of our sellers. And I experimented with this last week after our podcast is taking some of those questions and using them in my weekly connection, like just sprinkling them in and sprinkle I mean, it was and it was really good. It was good material for weekly connection. Did you think about is that yeah.
07:11
Tom Stanfill
I think about one of the ones I struggle with, because when I think about connection, again, this is an area where I need work, I need a reminder. I need something that tells me this is something I need to proactively do. Because I think it’s easy to be reactive. It’s kind of like parenting. You feel like you’re always in a management mode. Hey, don’t do that. You should do this. A lot of it’s managing based on numbers or what needs to happen that’s not happening, or what should happen moving forward because we got this deal or we’re working on something, versus the weekly Connection needs to also be about the relationship. It’s more than the work. And that’s where, hey, I’m proactively connecting. Hey, I’m just seeing how you’re doing, right? Yeah, how are you doing? And sometimes we need to decide, hey, I had this agenda where we’re going to have a management meeting and I need to shift to say, actually, I need to put on a different hat, and let’s talk about how you’re doing.
08:16
Tom Stanfill
Because desire determines everything. Like, if their desire is low for whatever reason, personal reason, or relational reasons, or maybe they’re just discouraged and they need a connection on a personal level. Whatever you’re talking about really doesn’t matter because they’re like, whatever.
08:35
Tab Norris
Yeah, it’s the goose and the golden egg. It’s like, it’s easy to get caught up in the golden eggs, but it’s the goose that’s laying those eggs. And we’ve got to find that nice balance of accountability, but also caring and about more than just results. I’ve had conversations with people I’ve managed, and they’re just blown away by that. I took this one guy to lunch one time. He just didn’t know what to say. He’s like, So you really want me to tell you what’s going on in my personal life? I go, yeah, because I think that’s the most important thing in your life, and I think it’s impacting your success or lack thereof.
09:16
Tom Stanfill
Wow.
09:17
Tab Norris
And so he goes, in all my years, no one’s ever cared about that.
09:21
Tom Stanfill
Wow.
09:21
Tab Norris
Isn’t that crazy?
09:23
Tom Stanfill
And you know what I can say of the people that have managed me? They didn’t care.
09:29
Tab Norris
So it’s not that far out.
09:31
Tom Stanfill
I mean, they’d hang out. Let’s go get lunch. Very few people actually really want to get to know you. It meets our need to be uniquely valued, which is one of the needs we talked about. If somebody wants to know you, I want to know who you are. What do you care about? What makes you sick? What’s important to you? Why are you doing this? There’s no agenda that meets one of our greatest emotional needs. You know who did that for me? It was my college football coach was.
10:06
Tab Norris
Really good at that.
10:07
Tom Stanfill
He saw me and I was a second string guy. But Coach Curry, he would notice me. He would say things to me in the hall. And again, I’m a second string guy, but he valued me. So he got the best possible effort out of me because I loved him. Why did I love him? Because he cared about me. If I saw him somewhere I was, remember, I’ll never forget again, I’m second string. I saw him. I was in a room of 1000 people. He’s speaking, he calls me out.
10:38
Tab Norris
Wow.
10:39
Tom Stanfill
He calls me out. And two other guys who were in the room, he goes by name. I did not plan to share that, but I’m having that emotion as I think about that man because of how he treated me. And again, what happens is you get somebody who gives you 100% of their effort and they don’t want to leave. People leave. They join for what’s the saying? They join for salary, but they leave because of their relationships or stay because of the relationship.
11:10
Tab Norris
Very true. So weekly connection, it’s not hard, we can all do it, but I’m just saying that is a habit that I see when people are really successful as a sales leader. So they’re other centered, which probably feeds nicely into weekly connection. But weekly connection is more than just talking about the weather. I mean, it’s really being a part. Like I said, it’s that balance of relational and getting things done, which is important.
11:42
Tom Stanfill
And I also think Tab, it’s probably important to highlight that we talk a lot at Aslan about the four different types of team members. There’s the achiever and the striver. The achiever is hitting their number and they want to get better. They want to dominate. They want to be the top right. They’re the high performing. The striver is not hitting their number, but they want to be coach. Then you have the Detractor who’s not hitting their number and they don’t want to be coach. And then you have the independent who’s hitting their number and like, leave me alone.
12:10
Tab Norris
Yeah.
12:11
Tom Stanfill
And so there’s definitely a coaching strategy for those people. You don’t really coach. It’s a waste of time to coach the Detractor and the independent, but we still want to connect with them.
12:23
Tab Norris
This is where you’ll manage all of them.
12:25
Tom Stanfill
You’ll manage them, but you also want to lead by connecting with them because most people are like, whatever, I’m not going to spend time see my positional. Coach in college ignored me because I wasn’t a first trainer. He’s like, whatever. Well, and what he didn’t get was he didn’t get my best performance from him. I wanted to perform for Curry. Thank God for Curry. But anyway, I think that’s important for people to understand they don’t necessarily need to invest all the time to coach somebody that doesn’t want to change, but they want to connect.
12:59
Tab Norris
Yeah. Even the person that says they don’t, it’s like, I’m going to connect anyway. Now, we’re not going to spend a lot of time, but I am going to care about you at a deeper level and I’m going to let you know that because there are certain personality styles that high achiever could just go run and we’re not going to do that. We’re going to have some connection and.
13:22
Tom Stanfill
It needs to be individual. Yeah. It’s very much what one appreciates and values. The other person may not. Some people don’t want to go to lunch.
13:33
Tab Norris
Oh yeah. What are you reading? And that’s how you connect. Tell me what you’re reading. I’m always anxious to know what you’re reading. Like an achiever type personality and oh, I’ve been learning about blah, blah. And it’s that versus somebody else. Their kid wanders in on the camera and you go, oh, is that Johnny? Talk to me. How’s Johnny doing? So it’s just creating. You want to have an environment. It’s like an environment of development, an environment of strong relationship that you want to get together. You long for it, which also, Tab.
14:15
Tom Stanfill
Creates a culture in your team.
14:17
Tab Norris
Yes.
14:17
Tom Stanfill
Because if you start to role model that, people will follow suit. And by the way, this is kind of a side topic, but if I’m trying to build a culture by investing in my team and hopefully seeing each other invest in each other and take care of each other and somebody wants to sabotage that, I will not tolerate that as a leader. I will not tolerate somebody that’s going to be toxic in my culture. Even if they’re a performer.
14:41
Tab Norris
Yeah, exactly. So that’s habit two, the other center weekly connection number three is very near and dear to my heart. You know it is. They fight for small victories with their team.
15:00
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. What do you mean by that, Tab?
15:02
Tab Norris
Why is that small victories? Like we live in this state of it’s. The book, win the day. Remember how you’ve heard me talk about a book that’s had a big impact in my life and kind of living in 24 hours compartments? Like, it’s so easy to get caught up in the past or you get lost in the future. It looks so big and burly and I’m never going to get there. And what you do is you have to look at your 24 hours period and I mean, I really challenge and I see great leaders do this. They challenge people to have daily victories and like, don’t get lost. Find a victory, keep plowing ahead until you get a victory. And it kind of feeds this kaizen, that whole uncompromising commitment to continuous improvement. I think that’s how you do it. It’s like, you know, the whole Kaizen thing, like Toyota, Tiger Woods was passionate.
16:03
Tom Stanfill
About that because constantly getting better.
16:04
Tab Norris
Yes. Just this uncompromising commitment to continuous improvement. So if you don’t have small victories that was what happened when they came and looked at the American plants and how they were making cars. They saw all kind of little things that if they could just tighten these little things up, to me, those are little victories. Like, if you just have the little things divide the good from the great. Right. It’s the little things. So if we can just look, we can look. It’s the whole idea around lag measures versus lead measures. Lag measure being outcomes. Like as a salesperson, did you hit your number? Do I have my sales or my profits? Do I have my meetings? It’s kind of where I want to go.
16:47
Tom Stanfill
Whether you success, were you successful or not, versus what determines success.
16:52
Tab Norris
Exactly. The lead measure is the best practice that produces the results that you want. Those are small victories. And if you can keep your eye on the ball, that if we can just get a small victory and we do that over and over again, the outcome will take care of itself. It was funny. I was talking to a salesperson about this and they were frustrated. And they’re like, well, I’m not going to be able to get there. And I just broke it down for them. They said, okay, so what’s the goal for the year? And pulling from one of your questions here, right. And it’s like, oh, but feel like we’re never going to get there because.
17:31
Tom Stanfill
Blah, blah, blah.
17:32
Tab Norris
I said, okay, let’s break this thing down. If you need to do within a week, if you could have this, would that get you? Yes. Okay, so what’s it going to take to get that? Okay, well, that means every day. So how many times we have to do this? We have to do this X amount of time. And it was like, amazing. We get done with that little exercise and they’re like, that feels very doable. Like real doable. I said, yes, but if you don’t win the day, every day and have that victory, fight for that victory, you’re not going to ever get there. And so you’re spinning your wheels, worrying about the future and not getting the outcome because you have a few rejections or you have lack of success. It’s like, Tom, remember how you and I in the early days of aslan the ticks tell people about the tick sheet?
18:20
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Well, were struggling with confidence, which by the way, is one of the reasons that I think it’s so important to break it down into small little bikes end the day. So it’s two things I’m hearing actually. One, it’s the belief that if I get a little bit better every day.
18:38
Tab Norris
Yeah, the 1%, if I get a.
18:39
Tom Stanfill
Little bit better, which is doable right, then I’m moving in the right direction and I’m going to get there. Because the other idea is I don’t do that, which means I’m coasting, which means I’m probably going downhill. And I do feel like things are in a constant state of change. You either are moving forward or you are moving backwards. There is no static coast. Yeah. So I love that idea. And then so how we did it is we would break it down today before we this was before we even heard about the book. We break it down into a day. And we decided that if we did these certain leading indicators, which was like getting a discovery meeting, making certain amount of calls, doing certain things, that were going to be successful. And we started to measure what that productivity equaled in revenue. And we started making equation we could equate money to an hour.
19:36
Tom Stanfill
If I spend an hour doing this, I’m going to make this much money. And it was just we broke it down to where building a business and making it this size was overwhelming. But to break it down into if I just do this for an hour it equals this. And so I can do it for an hour or I can do it for 4 hours or I can do it for whatever we decided. And then of course, we had each other to spur each other on and do curve, which is probably an important part of that.
20:02
Tab Norris
Well, we had weekly connections with each other back then.
20:04
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, that’s right. I want to say something about the small is breaking it down because I think there’s a lot of wisdom in that tab because there’s a lot of data about how change happened. And one of the truths about that, which I just experienced this recently, you want to lower the ladder, not raise the ladder. You want to lower the bar, not raise the bar. So in other words, you make it want to. Because one of the things that you’re not really talking about, but I know it’s a truth related to this is confidence. When you break it down. Like, were becoming confident by doing the little things, whether you’re working on a skill or you’re working on just productivity or process, if you break it down to a little Achievable thing, we’re going to work out every day for a year versus I’m going to work out once in a week.
21:04
Tom Stanfill
Just whatever is achievable. Then you build confidence. I thought about this the other day, preparing for this. We were going to Ireland last summer, almost a month ago. And so I went to get a golf coach. Okay? So first of all, he shows me the Hadeki, which is one of the best golfers world, won the Masters a couple of years ago, and he’s the most flexible golfer, and he has a full just great swing. So he starts off showing me that swing. Okay, well, I’m 61 and stiff. That’s not possible. And then he starts to get me to try to do that. It totally was so far gone, I just wrecked my game. Versus when I got back, I got a little tip, little bitty tip from our friend Rob houtland, who’s a great golfer. He’s almost a scratch golfer, and he tells me just to open my foot a little bit and just do that.
22:02
Tom Stanfill
Just all that’s all I do. That was easy. And all of a sudden, my game started to turn around. He just gave me this little and so I love this idea of just a little, just enough to get a little bit better, gives people confidence, and then they get momentum, and then it gets easier versus and I can be guilty of this, here’s the ten things you got to do to be great. Like me? Oh, yeah, not that I’m saying me. I’m just saying as a leader, a lot of times like, look, we get this, do this, do this, do this, and then they just go, whatever.
22:32
Tab Norris
Yeah. Well, I think we can put a bow on small victories with a story from, you know, me. I’m a baseball guy. I love baseball. And if anybody remembers the 2019 Nationals Washington Nationals, I’m not a Washington fan.
22:51
Tom Stanfill
But you talk about baseball, right?
22:52
Tab Norris
Baseball, yeah. And this was pretty deep into the season. The Nationals were 19 and 30, meaning they’ve lost 19 I mean, they’ve won 19 games. They’ve lost 30 games. Okay, that’s bad. That’s bad. This is bad. It’s so bad that they had a 0.1% chance of winning the National League pennant at that point in the season.
23:18
Tom Stanfill
Based on historical, just historical, just the odds.
23:21
Tab Norris
I mean, it’s just 0.1%, right? That’s pretty depressing. So the manager, the coach, which I love this, he basically just lived in the moment and said, guys, we’re going to break this down. We’re going to forget about the season. We’re going to forget about everything. All we’re going to do is we are living one day at a time. We are going to win the day. And he goes, we’re going to go one and o today. Literally, the story is every single day he just kept the team focused on, hey, awesome, we’re just one and o today. They ended up winning the World Series.
24:00
Tom Stanfill
Oh my gosh.
24:03
Tab Norris
It’s crazy, but it’s a perfect example. You can talk about confidence. It builds confidence. It gives I may not be able.
24:12
Tom Stanfill
To if you said, if you came in and said, we’re going to win the World Series because we got to win this many games. If you win this many games, we’ll go to the World Series. So all we got to do is win 80 games.
24:20
Tab Norris
Yeah. You’re just depressed. You’re just like, there’s no way. It’s like when I ran my first marathon. Oh, you’re going to do 26 miles. I can’t do 26. I can’t even do 7 miles. But if you just win the day, you just break it down. First habit got to be other centered. Second, weekly connection. Make sure you’re connecting with your team. Third habit is small victories. Like you said, break it down into bite size pieces, live in the moment. Make sure you’re working on lead indicators, not these just lagging measures and getting kind of depressed and run down because this is what they do. And as a leader, that’s what my job is, to drive that.
25:06
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. And people need accountability to that. I think that’s important. But I think a key twist to that is they need accountability to their indicators.
25:19
Tab Norris
Oh, yeah, it’s got to be there.
25:22
Tom Stanfill
If they’re like, I don’t know, what do you want me to do? Well, here’s what we’re going to break. It’s got to be theirs.
25:28
Tab Norris
That question, remember were talking about, I used a couple of those questions because you have to start with that. What do you want to do? Where are you trying to go? Why are you discouraged? What’s going on? You got to get into that. And then once you land on it together, then you start breaking it down and you land on what makes sense because you keep saying it, everybody’s different. One size does not fit all. Now these habits fit, but you apply them differently based on who you’re working with.
25:59
Tom Stanfill
And don’t fall for the rep who’s great at getting you to do it, because we like being smart and they know how to work as well.
26:11
Tab Norris
What do you think? Right.
26:13
Tom Stanfill
They just will constantly work to give it back to you, give you back the rock and say, well, what do you I don’t know. And if we just give it back to them, this is not my plan, these are not my goals. This is your goal because they are very comfortable. You doing the heavy lifting.
26:30
Tab Norris
Yeah, very true. Very true. So in the last the fourth habit.
26:36
Tom Stanfill
Okay, the fourth and final habit.
26:38
Tab Norris
Fourth and final habit.
26:39
Tom Stanfill
This is it. If you know this last four, you’re done.
26:41
Tab Norris
You can just great sales leaders. I’m a little nervous sharing this because this is going to be earth shattering. What they do is they diagnose and develop their team. And we’ve already alluded to that a little bit.
26:56
Tom Stanfill
I think I know what you’re talking about, but do explain.
26:58
Tab Norris
Yes, well, you may go. What is that? Well, that’s what we call coaching. But if I just said coaching, everybody has a preconceived idea what that means. Coaching. And you’ve probably seen this, Tom. Coaching means something different to everybody. For some people, coaching means having a meeting. Some people, coaching means telling somebody what they’re doing wrong. For some people, coaching means holding people accountable to something. So what I’m defining this as you diagnose and develop your team.
27:34
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, I love it.
27:35
Tab Norris
And you build that. You build it from your team’s strengths. You diagnose and develop people from their strengths. It’s really important that because people are like, Well, I talk to my team. But the really great ones, Tom, the habit of greatness is they observe. They observe their team in the field, on the zoom call, on the phone, or however they can. They go out with them if it’s possible. They ask very specific questions. If that’s not possible around specific meetings that happen, they role play in order to diagnose, to get them to show what they’re doing in front of customers so that it can be observed and worked on. And here’s the thing that I’ve seen, is it’s got to be customer outcome driven. You know what I mean?
28:33
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
28:33
Tab Norris
It’s not just we’ll just do this the way I do it, or you need to do this and that you want your diagnosis to be based on the customer did this. Right.
28:43
Tom Stanfill
So it’s not debatable.
28:45
Tab Norris
It’s not debatable. For instance, an example, a real simple one that I think most of us and all of us in sales get is to start the sales process. We all know we have to get a commitment of time. Right? I have to get a commitment for a discovery meeting. Whether it’s on the phone or a face to face, I just have to get a discovery meeting. That is a capability that you can diagnose, you observe. And then the customer agreed to the discovery meeting, or they didn’t. There’s no fighting about it. They did great. Then what do you do? You go check. You’re awesome. You got that. But if they don’t, then it’s like, okay, well, let’s break that down then. See, now we have something to work with.
29:31
Tom Stanfill
And that diet makes it very easy. I do like to connect it to sports or learning how to play music or something, if you can, or pottery. Pottery? Pottery doesn’t get very well. A lot of our listeners probably don’t understand pottery like you and I do. Or poetry.
29:48
Tab Norris
Exactly.
29:49
Tom Stanfill
But, yeah, if you look at the capabilities for something like whether it’s playing an instrument or sports, it’s very measurable. If you’re serving the tennis ball and the capability is serving the tennis ball, nobody argues.
30:02
Tab Norris
Yeah, it’s in.
30:04
Tom Stanfill
No, I was good at that. Well, you just look at where the ball landed in the box. Did the ball land in the box? And was it going a certain speed? That’s it. And here’s what the coaches do. Coaches are like, well, you’re not bouncing the ball right, and you’re not getting. Your racket, right? You’re not doing this. And everybody’s like, well, the ball is in the box.
30:21
Tab Norris
What does it matter?
30:22
Tom Stanfill
It doesn’t matter. And so then that becomes really complicated, and you lose people to buy in. So I love that you’re diagnosing what I would call a capability, and a capability has outcomes. Like, another example that I think is also very helpful is like Discovery. Either the customer revealed the information if you’ve defined Discovery as the customer reveals this information, they either did or didn’t. Yeah. And now you can work on the disciplines that drive, and you don’t have.
30:54
Tab Norris
Arguments because not effective sales leaders. That’s what they argue because, well, that’s just the way I do it. I do it like I do it. What I do is I come in and I talk about the deerhead on the wall, and that always spins them around and makes them real warm and happy. You don’t talk about the deerhead, only guys going, who gives a rip? I’m just trying to get a commitment. A discovery meeting. I love it. I think it creates that atmosphere we want of development. So that’s diagnose.
31:24
Tom Stanfill
And let me make one more point where you move on, because I can tell you, moving on to development, you have to observe to diagnose, because a capability is a blend of skills and knowledge. You can test people and say, do you know what you’re supposed to uncover in Discovery, for example? That doesn’t mean they know how to do it. You have to observe to see if the customer actually and so I think that’s really important if I’m going to deserve you playing tennis, if I’m going to see what’s wrong. Now, you may know that you could ask the question, well, did they reveal this information? And they could say no, right? And so you could ask, but you.
32:07
Tab Norris
Don’T know why, right, until you see them and we hear this. But you know what? The great ones, they find a way to observe. They just do.
32:18
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, there’s a lot of options, and.
32:18
Tab Norris
You can there’s so many options. Like I said, it may have somebody record a zoom meeting. Everybody nowadays does Discovery meetings on Zoom. Almost. Not everybody, but a lot of people do. It can be a phone call. You can somehow record a phone call if you can’t go in the field and ride with somebody. But if you’re a leader, the great leaders, they find a way to get out.
32:41
Tom Stanfill
You can role play.
32:42
Tab Norris
And that was what I was going to say. The worst case scenario is role play because they’re doing it. You’re watching how they do it. So really good point. I’m glad you drove that home before we moved to our finale, which is develop so they don’t just diagnoses.
33:03
Tom Stanfill
Recognize what’s the gap I need to.
33:05
Tab Norris
Work on, and then it bubbles up. And then, like you said, it’s the big capability. The ball is not going in the box, well, then we go, okay, what are the important factors in getting the ball to go in the box? Right? So we got to kind of think about it. So we got to pick the one together, collaborate, and pick the one that’s going to have the greatest impact of getting that ball in the box. It goes back to, yeah, it’s a small victory thing. And so now we land one actionable, simple, smart, goal, developmental activity around that behavior, and we work on it. And don’t get overwhelmed with, I’ve got to do all this. It’s one simple thing.
33:54
Tom Stanfill
We’re working on Discovery or we’re working.
33:56
Tab Norris
On, and what will happen is I’ll work ineffective leaders. This is how they’ll do it. They’ll watch them and they’ll get in the car. They’re driving to get coffee or whatever. It’s like, you got to better at Discovery. Gosh, come on, you can do better or whatever.
34:13
Tom Stanfill
Come on, come on.
34:15
Tab Norris
That’s our action plan. Now. We get together next time. I want you to do better at Discovery. And they wonder why no change happens, because that’s not going to drive change. So it’s like, okay, what specifically was and you kind of dig into it. It’s like, okay, what are a couple of questions that you could have explored or asked to explore that would fit with this next call that you have coming up next week? And you bubble that up and you go, okay, hey, once you just put together the two that you think are going to be extremely impactful, shoot them over to me. I’d love to see them. And I want you to practice. I know you have that meeting Thursday. Put it into play in your Discovery meeting and assess it. How did it go? What did you learn? How did it feel?
34:59
Tab Norris
And jot down some thoughts. And when we get together on Monday, let’s talk about it. It’s that simple. And if you do that one week at a time, one month at a time, what happens is over time, you have an unbelievable team.
35:16
Tom Stanfill
Well, it kind of goes back to your other habit about small victories.
35:21
Tab Norris
Totally.
35:22
Tom Stanfill
This reminds me, I just thought about this about early client that were working with, ScanSource, and we had just trained their I think we just finished training all the reps, and were trying to motivate them to coach. And so we wanted to build a case study for the impact of coaching, which is doing exactly what you’re saying. And so I remember you broke it down and you decided we picked a group of ten reps, and you decided that Discovery was the capability that you were going to work on, and you drilled it down, which I thought was brilliant. You said, we’re all we’re going to do is ask three questions that are beyond the questions that you’re asking. You got them you work together. They developed the questions with your guidance, but they’re leading it’s their session. And all you did was focus on working with that team to ask three questions.
36:21
Tom Stanfill
And we measured $10 million incremental revenue that they uncovered by asking three questions. Now talk about this all just comes together because you’ve diagnosed the discovery problem. You’re now going to develop we’re going to develop the three questions and you’re going to work with them to do that. And now those routes are probably never the same. Matter of fact, I walked back in that building 15 years later.
36:48
Tab Norris
Wow.
36:49
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. I don’t think I ever told you this because you were never talking to about do some more training with another division. And as soon as the guys, the leaders walked in who were there when you were working with them, and the first thing that says, drop the rope, take the trip, they remember the concept, but yeah, it stuck. It’s a great example of you practicing what you’re preaching.
37:11
Tab Norris
Yeah, that’s really what it is. It does create a small victory. And you think about it, that’s a great example because some people, they’re working on their development, that’s their small victory. Other people, it’s accountability to actually make outbound calls for other people. So you got to know your team. And that’s why I think small victories is its own bucket. But this is to do this well, it does include small victories because you do have to diagnose and you have to develop. And I think everybody gets the smart. I think most everybody knows what that means. But specific measurable attainable, relevant and time bound that it’s got power when it’s smart.
37:57
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, well, it’s good to remember that because we can easily just go set a goal. That’s not a smart goal.
38:02
Tab Norris
Yeah, it’s just the one I said about discovery. Just do more discovery. It’s not smart, so it doesn’t have any impact.
38:08
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, you were saying, let’s ask these three questions. Let’s do it for a period of time, and it was relevant and it time bound. And it was measurable, because the question was what incremental revenue would be did you uncover by asking those questions? And it was revenue they didn’t normally have. So what I love about what you’re saying, which is so hard for us as leaders, but coaching isn’t a conversation.
38:36
Tab Norris
Yes, well said.
38:39
Tom Stanfill
I hate that because what you’re saying costs time. It’s like, why can’t I just and this is really important. We’ve talked about capabilities, and I’ve identified eight there’s eight basic capabilities that every seller needs to develop. Not every seller, but most sellers need to develop. Some of them are strategic capabilities, like, how do you identify the political structure, which isn’t relevant to all sellers, but for most sellers, there’s eight. Right. So that’s pretty and not everybody needs the strategic. And if you’re going to focus on the capabilities that are required to influence on a one to one, there’s only four. So we can break that down. But if you start focusing on all the disciplines and skills and tips and all that stuff, it gets to be, let’s just say, 100. And you can blow people’s minds. If you come out of a meeting and you start talking and you say, okay, well, you could have done this, and this, and you could have done this, and it’s questioning, which, by the way, makes me feel better as a coach.
39:33
Tab Norris
Oh, yeah, totally fix it.
39:35
Tom Stanfill
I just told you all the things you need to do. So we’re done, right?
39:38
Tab Norris
Yeah.
39:39
Tom Stanfill
No versus, oh, man, we got to break this down, and I got to work with you on an ongoing basis. So I get it. It’s hard. But hopefully what you’re sharing is that it works.
39:51
Tab Norris
It just works. I said this the other day. I was talking to a client, VP of sales, and I said, you want to get me passionate. You get me talking about coaching and development. It just works. I’ve been doing it way too long that if you actually do what I tell you to do, you will crush it, and your people will develop, and you’ll get great return on investment. I mean, I said, I can’t be any more confident. It’s just true. But it’s hard, and it’s hard for everybody, and I do this for a living. I’ve been doing a long time. It’s still hard for me.
40:23
Tom Stanfill
Let me encourage people that are struggling with the time. But what we’re talking about, the challenge of spending the time to do that here’s, the benefit of creating a developmental activity, like developing three questions, and then we’re going to make a smart goal. Here’s the beauty of that. If they don’t do it, you don’t coach them. Right? If you’ve got somebody says, you just go, hey, you let me know when you want for me to work with you, because I can’t force you to get better at serving the tennis ball. I can’t make you learn a skill. It’s just not possible. So desire determines development, and so that’s the key to the coaching session. And if you realize two things will happen. If you assign a developmental activity and they get excited and do it, then you get motivated. I’ve got somebody who’s hungry, who wants me to invest.
41:19
Tom Stanfill
And the other thing is, if you assign a developmental value and they don’t develop mental activity and they don’t do it, you’re like, Call me when you’re ready. And now you can focus your energy. We determined through some research tab that a manager waste a month and a half of their time every year coaching reps that don’t want to change.
41:39
Tab Norris
I believe it. I totally believe it. I know. And it’s demotivating for everybody.
41:44
Tom Stanfill
Good.
41:46
Tab Norris
Yeah, I’m with you. I think it’s awesome. And I think that’s the I was thinking that you talk about sometimes I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this happen, Tom, where you have some people like that you’re assigned, but they’re a couple that you work with, and what happens? I’ve seen this multiple times. They start having success, and then it breeds this culture of development. Like well, shoot, look at Johnny and Susan over here. They’re, like, starting to kill it. What are they doing? So that was one thing. The other thing, as you had said, I wanted to come back to, is all the things, because I think that’s an important statement you made. Just hundreds of things to work on. Because I worked with a guy, he was really sharp, a young sales guy. He was a voracious reader. So he scoured for all he was a disaster because he was every week, Tom, you would show it with a new book he read.
42:57
Tab Norris
He’s got four tips. He’s going to put them into practice this week. And I’m like, no. Good Lord, no more. No more. And they were all conflicting, and one’s pushy, one’s passive. I mean, it was just a big old mess.
43:12
Tom Stanfill
So we got to clarify and simplify, especially today for people. We need to narrow them in. I also want to encourage the leader, coach, that may lack confidence. A lot of times we’re working with organizations where there’s a major strategy shift. And so the leader came up through the ranks because they used to do what the seller they used to be in sales. Well, now they’re a sales force that’s changing and doing something different, or maybe they just aren’t sure how to develop their people. And I just want to encourage that, Coach, that it’s okay if you don’t know what to do.
43:49
Tab Norris
Yes.
43:49
Tom Stanfill
If you communicate to your people. First of all, I do think it’s important, like you’re saying, just to find the core capabilities that are measurable. You got to start there. The ball is not going in the box. Discovery is not happening. Bill value is not happening. Advance is not happening. And if you need more information about that, we can provide. We have a lot of resources related to free resources related to how to define the capabilities, what are developmental activities. So reach out to us. But if you’re just struggling, like, I don’t really get it. I don’t think I could do it. You are not the focus of the story. The rep is. And by saying to your rep, look, I will find somebody, or, let’s work on this together, or, let’s figure this out, or, I’m here to support you. I don’t have to be the smartest person in the room.
44:33
Tom Stanfill
It’s more about helping shape the plan than it is about being the best golfer, our tennis player, our seller.
44:42
Tab Norris
Right.
44:42
Tom Stanfill
And I think we need to be able to demonstrate we’re better than the rep. That’s not true.
44:53
Tab Norris
Yeah, totally. All the time.
44:56
Tom Stanfill
Of course, that’s not something I ever struggle with?
44:58
Tab Norris
Because I’m well, no, because you’re great at everything, so it’s really easy. You’re even great at darts. I mean, you could go, like, bowl. It’s like, oh, my gosh, he’s a championship bowler pickleball. I’m not. So, Tom, great session.
45:13
Tom Stanfill
I love it.
45:14
Tab Norris
We got learning. I’m going to wrap it up.
45:16
Tom Stanfill
Wrap it up.
45:17
Tab Norris
And then just to kind of pull it all together, because you know me.
45:20
Tom Stanfill
This is when they start playing the music.
45:21
Tab Norris
Yeah, the music comes up. Four habits of successful sales leaders. One, they’re other centered. Two, they have weekly connection. Three, they have small victories. And four, they diagnose and develop.
45:35
Tom Stanfill
I love it. You know what I’d love to hear from our audience? If you’re a seller, let us know what works. Like, tell us what your leader is doing. That works.
45:45
Tab Norris
I like that.
45:46
Tom Stanfill
And we’ll share that with other leaders so that they’ll be better leaders. And if you’re leading and coaching and you have best practices that you want to share with us, we’ll always love to hear that. And, of course, always love to hear feedback on how we can serve you better. So thanks for joining us for another episode of Sales with Aslan Tab. Thanks, my friend. This is brilliant. Love it. Learn from you. And I look forward to our next time together in the studio.
