Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.

The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.

The following are notes from Ep. 174 – The Birds – Part 2

In this episode, Tom and Tab are re-joined by behavioral expert, keynote speaker and author, Dan Silvert. (If you missed Dan’s first appearance on the pod, check out Episode 171 – The Birds.) 

During his previous feature, Dan introduced us to the 4 Behavioral Styles, illustrated by four characters: the Eagle, Parrot, Dove, and Owl. He used these characters to discuss how sellers can adapt to the four different behavior styles as they apply to customers. Today, Dan focuses on how this knowledge can also help sales leaders better understand their team members and more effectively lead, manage, and coach. 

Listen to the conversation here:

Or check out the full transcript below.

Resources:

• Check out Dan Silvert’s website for more information
• Forbes articles by Dan Silvert 
• Velocity Advisory Group – Dan Silvert 

Transcript:

00:13
Tom Stanfill
Welcome back to one more episode of Sales with Aslan. I’m your host, Tom Stanfill. I’m here with, I think, what do we call you? The Doctor of Sales training and on the greatest host in America? Is that where we landed?

00:28
Tab Norris
Co host.

00:28
Tom Stanfill
Oh, co host. You’re a greatest co host in America. Not Canada.

00:33
Tab Norris
Well, the good news is that they don’t really have a category for that. You can kind of claim it if you want it.

00:41
Tom Stanfill
We have a guest in the audience. We have a guest, not in the audience. We have a guest because the audience…

00:46
Tab Norris
We don’t have an audience.

00:48
Tom Stanfill
Don’t ruin it.

00:49
Tab Norris
No, it’s not a real audience.

00:52
Tom Stanfill
We have a studio audience. We do have a studio audience, but we’ve got an actual guest in the building, our return guest. We’re excited to have Dan Silvert back in the studio with us today. Welcome back, Dan.

01:05
Dan Silvert
Thank you for having me.

01:08
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, were just chatting before the show. We hit the record button, talking about how much we loved the first session with you. So, for Those Of you Who Didn’t hear Dan’s First podcast with us, talking about the personality, the behavioral styles, the communication styles, dan can clarify what’s The Best Way To Categorize this, but The Four Types Of Customers That We Sell to and How To Quickly Understand that. If we understand their profile and we understand how to adjust, we can instantly build relationships, better at influence, better at connecting, just more successful. I mean, almost instantly. I mean, some of the truths that you shared, Dan, when we were together several weeks ago, instantly changed how I thought about some of the meetings that I had and also playing the tape back going, oh, boy, I shouldn’t have done that.

02:00
Tab Norris
Those are the ones that hit me. That’s why I lost! That’s why they hung up on me!

02:07
Tom Stanfill
And you know what’s great about this topic of understanding the four styles is no matter how long you’ve been in sales, you constantly need to be reminded of what you already know. I mean, I’ve been teaching these styles for years, but I still forget. I forget the truth and the power of them. So thank you for reminding Dan. So welcome back, my friend. Thanks for joining us again.

02:32
Dan Silvert
Well, again, I’m thrilled to be here and keep the conversation going.

02:35
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

02:36
Tab Norris
Yes.

02:37
Tom Stanfill
What we, what I think what we promised our listeners is, Tab that we would we talked about if I’m a seller and I’m working with a customer, how do I understand their style and how do I adjust? In this episode, we want to talk about if you’re a leader, right? I’m sure this applies to sellers as well, because we can apply this to other people in other relationships in our lives. The primary focus is, if I’m a leader, how do I better understand my four types of team members and knowing their style, their behavioral style. 

And again, Dan, you’re going to give us a better way to talk about this. Understanding their style will help me inspire them, coach them, manage them, lead them, just better at working and adjusting my approach with each individual. Dan, lead us back through with just a quick overview for those who haven’t caught the last episode of The Four Types.

03:34
Dan Silvert
Okay! So A, we’re talking about behavioral styles, not personality. Big difference.

03:40
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, I knew I blew that. I knew you’re going to call me out.

03:43
Dan Silvert
Haha key distinction.

03:47
Tom Stanfill
Let’s keep it real, man. Let’s keep it real.

03:50
Dan Silvert
The personality sets from somewhere between six and nine years old. At least that’s according to the research that I’ve seen. Pretty set. Behavior changes or else we’d all be running around like nine year olds.

04:03
Tom Stanfill
Okay, so that’s a good way. Your personality, you’re saying sets early, you’re not changing that.

04:10
Dan Silvert
Right. You can have an introverted personality. Meaning, your natural state is not to be the life of the party, but to be a listener and a reader and a thinker and a contemplator. If you’re put in a role that requires you to be more extroverted in your behavior, there’s no reason why you can’t become expert at that. It might not be your preferred way to behave in your private life, but in your professional life, in the world of sales, you adjust.

04:37
Tom Stanfill
Right?

04:38
Dan Silvert
So we’re talking about behavior, not personality. With that, we’ve got four basic drivers of behavior, and we call them well, in the disc model, it’s dominant influence, steady conscientious. But we use birds. The reason we use these metaphors is because we find that they’re sticky and we find that they’re evocative of a wide range of behaviors that you will recognize. So we start with the eagles. Eagle styles, their fundamental focus is results. When eagles are moving at the right velocity, in the right direction towards a goal, they are happy. When eagles are not moving in the proper direction towards their target, they are particularly unpleasant both with themselves and with the people around them. How do we know that we’re dealing with an eagle? Well, their behavior, what is their behavior? Well, they’re direct, they’re blunt, they focus on the bottom line. Could you please tab hurry up.

05:44
Dan Silvert
Right.

05:45
Tom Stanfill
Why are you telling me that story? I don’t need to know the story.

05:48
Tab Norris
I don’t need to know what’s the.

05:49
Tom Stanfill
Answer to the question?

05:51
Tab Norris
Why are we here and why are you wasting my time?

05:55
Dan Silvert
What’s the point here? How can we move this forward? Whatever it is we’re talking about? Eagles are competitive. Eagles are decisive in how they make decisions. By the way, just to go deeper there, decisiveness can come across as arrogance to other styles because it’s quick. Right? An eagle style doesn’t think I’m going to talk to nine people first. Before making a decision. An eagle makes the decision and then talks to nine people, right. Those nine people then say, well, why didn’t you talk to us first? It can come across as arrogance, but really what’s happening is that eagles are humble to the idea that they’re not going to get it done right. They’re just progress. Progress means falling down, getting up, falling down, getting up. The quicker I fall down, the quicker I get up, the quicker I learn. And that is why they’re decisive.

06:39
Dan Silvert
That’s one little example of how misconceived we misconstrue why people do what they do. Okay.

06:46
Tom Stanfill
I think this is a really big point I want to highlight. This is that we tend to attribute motive to behavior. I think what you’re highlighting is when we’re looking at our team members, we go, oh, that’s why you did that, because maybe that’s why they would have done it, but it’s not always true. I think that can cause a riff in the relationship when you attribute a negative motive to somebody when actually they’re just acting out of their natural style. Is that fair?

07:13
Dan Silvert
Absolutely. We judge ourselves based upon our own intent because we’re intimately familiar with our own intent. I know what my intent was. That’s why I behave a certain way. We judge other people based on their behavior, not their intent.

07:24
Tom Stanfill
Right.

07:25
Tab Norris
And we don’t ask about their intent. We just make an assumption and move forward.

07:29
Dan Silvert
Exactly.

07:30
Tom Stanfill
So well said. Gosh. And that’s what we do. If I would have done that. Say that again, Dan. Say that. I want to say that again.

07:36
Dan Silvert
We judge ourselves based upon our intent, but we judge other people based upon.

07:40
Tom Stanfill
Their behavior, which we should do the same thing that we do for ourselves, for others. Don’t judge that. We don’t know their intent. We don’t know their intent. So we need to figure that out.

07:50
Dan Silvert
We need to be optimistic about the intent.

07:52
Tom Stanfill
Yes.

07:53
Dan Silvert
Because otherwise we judge other people’s behaviors, and we often judge incorrectly. One of the best ways to use this material, especially in sales and leadership of sales, is to give people the benefit of the doubt by understanding them deeper. That the why behind a behavior isn’t an assault against us. It is because they are wired differently than us. Big difference. All right, so let’s go to parrots. The fundamental focus of parrot energy is fun. That sounds fun, right?

08:25
Tom Stanfill
You know what a parrots look fun? Tab.

08:28
Tab Norris
They do. They’re like party happening.

08:31
Tom Stanfill
There’s actually, Buckhead, that you on West Places ferry across from the governor’s mansion. When I drive by that, the parrots are literally parrot. Rich people have parrots, and there’s parrots. It’s a very expensive sheet. And they’re walking around. I’m thinking, they got to be having fun.

08:43
Tab Norris
They’re not peacocks.

08:45
Tom Stanfill
You know what? You know what? Never mind. Never do we have to bust me on this. No one would know.

09:03
Dan Silvert
Because I’m a.

09:04
Tom Stanfill
Parent in our vast studio audience knows that their parents are peacock.

09:07
Dan Silvert
I hate to interrupt all that. Sorry Dan.

09:09
Tom Stanfill
Sorry Dan. We’re back to the parents. Never mind they’re peacocks. Go ahead, Dan.

09:13
Dan Silvert
Thank you. I live in South Florida in Del Rey. If you walk around enough you will find peacocks on people’s roofs, the roofs of their houses.

09:23
Tom Stanfill
Oh really?

09:24
Dan Silvert
They are p***** off creatures. They are making okay. They are Cornery. They are yeah, okay. They display their colors and so we, we pretty but they don’t have the disposition of a parrot.

09:40
Tom Stanfill
Parrot is our having a conversation. Not pirate, but parrot.

09:44
Tab Norris
Yeah.

09:47
Dan Silvert
Anyway, how do we know someone’s a parent? Well, by the way they behave. They tend to smile a lot, they joke a lot, they’re optimistic, they’re expressive, they’re enthusiastic. They bring this morning, noon and night. It is natural to them. They don’t need a situation to evoke these behaviors. They just bring it every day. Okay, then we have doves. Doves are the symbol of peace around the world. How do we know when we’re sea? When the presence of a dove, there’s a calmness there, the tone of voice is friendly, it’s warm. They ask questions of others as opposed to just talk about themselves. They tend to be more modest and humble about their own achievements. You’re with a dove because they’re actually listening to you as opposed to talking at you like eagles do or talking about themselves in your presence like parrots do. Last but not least, we have our owls.

10:44
Dan Silvert
Owl energy is all about quality and accuracy. How do we know we’re in the presence of an owl? They tend to be skeptical. They tend to ask a lot of questions in order to gather enough data to arrive at a conclusion. They do not take your opinion at face value. They don’t just say, oh, you’re right. No. They’ll ask questions around it. They’ll think about it in the extreme. Think of spock.

11:10
Tom Stanfill
Right.

11:12
Dan Silvert
Whenever Kirk said, we’re going left, spock said, well, that’s not advisable. Why? Because Spock had nine reasons why that was not advisable.

11:24
Tom Stanfill
It reminds me of the story you tell about Elizabeth Tap, who’s an owl, his tap’s wife’s an owl and the bug man showed up.

11:31
Tab Norris
Tap tell, yeah. And she’s like, the bug out. He comes to the door, we had a bug or something. I’m like, hey, bug man. He has name on the shirt. I’m like, Come on in, sit down. We got bugs. Can you go kill him? And he’s like, of course I can. I said, well, we get to work, let’s get started. My wife’s no, come have a seat down in the kitchen. We’re going to have to talk through this before we get started. She’s just the bug man I mean, she’s got 17 questions. What about this bug? And what’s the species? And what are you going to do? What if it comes back? What are my guarantees? Oh, and by the way, I want a 25% discount. Why? Because I just need it. It was awesome. And that was early in our marriage. I was like, I have married the right woman.

12:16
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, there you go. And algae, bugs. Algae, bugs.

12:21
Dan Silvert
It doesn’t matter what the topic is, whether it’s your work life or the bugs in your house. Owls demand quality in all situations because if they’re not involved in high quality endeavors, then it’s very disturbing. It puts them in a pretty bad mood. So here it is. We’ve got these four basic drivers of behavior the eagles, paris, doves and owls. Most of us, vast majority of us, of course, are a blend. Some of us are eagle paris. Some of us are al doves. Some of us are three styles. In the sales world, in any professional environment, our ability to thrive is typically driven by the level of relationships that we’re able to form with people around us. Are there software programmers that can just sit in front of a screen and not have to talk to people? Absolutely. The rest of us, we have to engage.

13:11
Dan Silvert
To the extent that we understand why people say and do what they do, we actually build healthier relationships and that opens up new opportunities and that enables us to grow. That’s not a ride that you want to get off of and that’s why this is important.

13:25
Tom Stanfill
Well, it also shapes how we influence and that’s probably, I think, that’s part of what you said in your benefits of learning the styles. I mean, I want to really highlight that a relationship determines influence. We may not put a high priority on relationship, especially if we’re an eagle or maybe if we’re an owl. We might not put that priority. If you want people to change their beliefs and follow you, the relationship and the emotional connection that you have plays a big role in that. This ability to adjust to the styles and become the person they need you to become as you’re communicating, I think has a big impact on that.

14:04
Dan Silvert
Absolutely. I mean, whether we realize it or not, we’re all in the persuasion business because we all have a perspective that we either wish for ourselves or wish for other people or wish for a situation. It’s our ability to connect with others that either enables that to happen more easily or creates all kinds of frustrating roadblocks for us and can really lower the quality of our lives. Really this is about improving the quality of your life in a very fundamental way, your ability to connect with other people, whether it’s at work or in your personal life.

14:40
Tom Stanfill
So let’s get more granular. Let’s talk about so I’m a leader.

14:44
Dan Silvert
Yes.

14:44
Tom Stanfill
Right. I’m a sales leader.

14:47
Dan Silvert
Sales leader.

14:48
Tom Stanfill
Sales leader. Let’s just say sales leader for now. Let’s make it a little.

14:51
Dan Silvert
Which means you have a sales team.

14:53
Tom Stanfill
That means I have a sales team. And I was just on a call. Right. So were on a call together. I’m listening in virtually or I’m on a zoom call together and we’re both participating or riding around and it’s over and I want to coach them. All right. Let’s kind of run through the birds again.

15:17
Dan Silvert
Okay.

15:18
Tom Stanfill
How would I change that approach if let’s just start with the eagle. Let’s start with the eagle. And I see some gaps, right? I see some gaps. There’s something to work on. It’s not perfect.

15:29
Dan Silvert
Let’s start with the leader is an eagle and let’s say one of the sales reps has a lot of parrot energy.

15:37
Tom Stanfill
Okay. Like it. So I’m an eagle. I’m a leader. I’m an eagle. Right.

15:42
Dan Silvert
The eagle has witnessed this conversation between the parrot and a prospect and afterwards the parrot is just super excited. Wow, wasn’t it awesome? They’re going to buy we both love football, our wives both love cooking. Right. A parrot is just excited that there are so many commonalities because to a parrot the more we have in common, the more likely we are to see things the same way. The more likely we are to agree that you should buy our product because or our service because while we’re on the same page and parrots are not wrong about this, but the eagle is looking at it from a different perspective. The eagle is thinking what have you actually accomplished to justify this level of happiness? Yeah, from the eagle’s perspective there wasn’t a follow up call established. There wasn’t a clear conversation about what the needs of the prospect were in relationship to the product or service that were sold.

16:47
Dan Silvert
It was generally spoken about but it wasn’t specifically attracted in a way that was memorable to. From the eagles perspective, there was a checklist that out of the six most important things that needed to transpire.

17:02
Tom Stanfill
Subjectives, there’s objectives and we accomplish these objectives.

17:07
Dan Silvert
One of them was nailed, two of them were almost gotten and the rest weren’t even addressed.

17:11
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, we don’t even know who the decision maker is. You assume that this person you assume they were qualified. You assume these things.

17:19
Dan Silvert
Exactly. Now the eagle has a dilemma because there’s what she wants to say and then there’s what she should say because she’s sitting with her eagle direct report and what she wants to say is what was that? We’re not here for social engagement. We’re here to provide value. I don’t think that you were focused enough to provide enough value to assume anything about the future of this relationship. That’s what she wants to say but you probably shouldn’t say it. The reason is that if you’re working with a parrot. Well, you’re working with a parrot, not yourself. You coach an eagle, you can just give them the bottom line and say, hey, here’s why, here’s what you need to do differently. An eagle is like, next.

18:14
Tom Stanfill
Thank you.

18:14
Dan Silvert
No, she’s not having a conversation with herself. She’s having conversation with this person who’s a parrot. So what do parrots need? Well, parrots need to feed off a positive energy. If you want a parrot to change what they’re doing, you need to validate where they’re coming from. If that sounds like a contradiction, it is but not so much. So she should say, okay. What I loved about that conversation, Mr. Parrot, is that you immediately established a report, and it was clear that the prospect was really comfortable with you. You’re gifted at that. You just have an ability to put people at ease, and that’s a really important skill for sales. I actually enjoy watching you do that. I actually be honest with you, I learned a few things because I’m not as good at that. Let me tell you, there were a few things missing from this.

19:09
Dan Silvert
What do you think they were? Instead of telling him, get engaged. Right. She should do it with a smile, because most of communication is not what we say, but how we say it. Now, she doesn’t want to do this at all because to her, this is a waste of time and I should just tell him what he did wrong.

19:30
Tom Stanfill
What he’s going to take all the time and what I need to move on.

19:32
Dan Silvert
This whole being smiley and happy, phony, to me, it’s not authentic. And you’re asking me to be phony. If I were her coach, the sales leader, I would say no. I’m not asking you to be phony. I’m asking you to honor the person you’re with, because your goal is to surface his genus. That’s your goal. Not to impose your standard on him. Right. If you’re not elevating people based upon their skill sets, what are you doing? You’re smothering them.

20:03
Tom Stanfill
Do you think all that’s missing here is lack of knowledge? The eagle doesn’t know why the parrot does what they do? Or do you feel like there is a superiority, like a judgment?

20:16
Dan Silvert
Okay. I think it comes across because the.

20:19
Tom Stanfill
Parent can be knows, oh, you’re just a clown, you’re just wasting time. You’re not serious. It’s a judgment of character.

20:27
Dan Silvert
Eagles have a big problem, is that they’re terrible at PR. They come across as arrogant, they come across as judgmental, but they’re really not really. What the eagle is saying is, look, I know what has made me successful, and what you are doing is so at odds with what I do that I am concerned for your success.

20:45
Tab Norris
That’s really good.

20:47
Dan Silvert
That’s really what’s going on.

20:49
Tom Stanfill
Which is, by the way, if we’re talking to the parrot who’s being coached. Managing up is attribute a positive motive. This person is trying to help me. Don’t look at it as you’re being attacked exactly.

21:04
Tab Norris
Because you’re saying, if you’re the rep.

21:06
Tom Stanfill
If you’re the rep, don’t assume you’re doing this because you’re a jerk and you’re judging me. You think you’re better than, oh, I know why you’re telling me this. Yeah, because I’m in control of the relationship, too. I’m not a victim.

21:23
Dan Silvert
Two ways to keep parrots from being defensive is a do it in private, never do it in public.

21:29
Tom Stanfill
That not true for all of them?

21:31
Dan Silvert
Now, parrots in particular are really sensitive to group dynamics, and something that embarrasses a parrot in the presence of other people is a much stronger slap in the face. Always do it in private and genuinely surface what they’re great at so that you can build upon it and say you’re great at this. Boy, man, if you could add more discovery questions to your existing skill set, you are going to go so much higher because you’re so gifted in this area. All you need to do is add a few things here and then you’re going to be off to the races. It’s a very positive message. It happens to be true.

22:16
Tom Stanfill
You got to pick something that’s genuine because it is true.

22:20
Dan Silvert
That’s what I say to Eagles when they say, well, I don’t like to butter people up. I’m not asking you to butter them up. I’m asking you to tell them the truth in a way that actually galvanizes them as opposed to shutting them down. If you’re really about performance, you should be enthusiastic about this. Not saying, oh, it makes me feel phony. I don’t care how it makes you feel.

22:40
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, right.

22:41
Dan Silvert
Not about you. It’s about that person needs in order to be successful. Are you a leader or not?

22:48
Tom Stanfill
What I think also helps Eagles, too, as I’ve worked with Eagles in the past, is change. Their objective from this call should go this way to helping the rep become the best that they can become, help them maximize their potential. That’s your job when you have a team member. I was a second string football player. My coach’s job was to get me to be the best second string football player I could be versus, oh, whatever. You’re just second string because that’s what a leader does. A leader needs to develop their people to the highest level potential. Because when this first string guy got hurt, I’m now playing. I need to be the best. Every team member needs to reach to the highest level of potential, and I think that helps an Eagle change. How can you help the parrot be the best that they can be?

23:31
Dan Silvert
All right, so let’s switch it up. Let’s say that the manager, the sales leader is an owl.

23:37
Tom Stanfill
I was going to ask you.

23:41
Dan Silvert
Because you’re an eagle pair of paradigm. You just want to focus on there are other people out there.

23:47
Tom Stanfill
You’re the expert, you keep going.

23:49
Dan Silvert
Let’s say the leader is an owl and you tell me who are they coaching? Tab, who are they coaching?

23:56
Tab Norris
If I’m an owl, I’m coaching Owls or Dubs, I would guess.

24:04
Dan Silvert
Okay, so Owls coaching Owls is really interesting.

24:08
Tab Norris
That’s what I would kind of I was really intrigued by. I didn’t know if that was legal, but I would think that would be really cool to see an owl coaching owl.

24:14
Tom Stanfill
I don’t think that’s legal too. This is why you’re the best co host in America. I would have never asked that question.

24:21
Tab Norris
Stretching it, aren’t I?

24:22
Dan Silvert
It’s a tough question.

24:24
Tom Stanfill
I would have thought that would be easy for owl to coach now.

24:27
Dan Silvert
No, it’s not. Because when Owls disagree with one another, good luck. That’s kind of what I was thinking. Both Owls always think that they’re right because they have the data at their disposal. You got two owls that know that they’re right. Try getting in between that one. Right. What owl leaders need to do when dealing with it, when working with other owls and coaching other owls, is to lean on their secondary style. So let’s say it’s an owl. Eagle. Lean eagle on this coaching call because you already understand from an owl perspective why the sales rep said and did what he or she did. The question is, could there have been more urgency? Could there have been more advancing the ball in a particular direction? Could the conversation have been shorter? Right. Did we really need to go as deep as we did in this particular functionality?

25:23
Dan Silvert
Or was that interesting but not necessarily useful? Leaning on your secondary style when you are working with a colleague who shares your primary style is often a really good way to add value.

25:38
Tom Stanfill
Okay, this is new.

25:40
Tab Norris
I know. Me too.

25:41
Tom Stanfill
If I lean on my and what I hear you say is if I go data point to data point, we start arguing the data, we’re going to go nowhere. Lean into your eagle and let’s talk more. What other objectives could we accomplish? Not argue the data because that’s going to go nowhere.

26:01
Dan Silvert
That’s great. Right.

26:03
Tom Stanfill
If I’m coaching a parrot and I would typically be the parrot being coached because that’s if I’m a coach, what doesn’t matter. If I’m a parrot and my secondary style is eagle, I should go eagle with the parrot. That’s what you’re saying?

26:20
Dan Silvert
Yeah. I think if you share a primary style, go to a secondary style because each of a style has tremendous value in the sales and leadership process. Right? Because what do Eagles prioritize in leadership action? Risk taking confidence. Okay, but what are their challenges? Eagles are challenged by being flexible, seeing things from another perspective. They’re challenged by the pacing of things. Eagles like to move things very quickly and not other styles are not comfortable with that. So these are real challenges. If you’ve got two of the same style going at each other from the same perspective, they’re just going to lock horns in both of their challenges, there’s not going to be room to see things from a different perspective. Right.

27:06
Tom Stanfill
Got it.

27:07
Dan Silvert
Parrots, what are their priorities? Enthusiasm, relationships, innovation. Parrots want to positivity. What’s that?

27:16
Tom Stanfill
Positivity?

27:17
Dan Silvert
Absolutely. So what are they challenged by? Well, they’re impulsive and process is really important that often parrots skimp on process, but an owl would consider perfectly natural, like what Tab was just saying to TAB’s wife, sitting down with someone before they actually start working and quizzing them on how they’re going to do it and why they’re going to do it. That’s called normal. He was like, Whoa, look at this.

27:43
Tab Norris
This may be a better way.

27:46
Dan Silvert
Right. Another thing that parents struggle with is follow through, but eagles don’t struggle with that. Eagles want to move that ball. Move that ball. And, owls also are good with follow through because owls have this thing called a schedule. Yes, they have a plan, they have a calendar and they use it.

28:07
Tom Stanfill
They look at the list before they do the thing that the list was created to do. I can make a list, I just don’t look at it.

28:17
Dan Silvert
We kind of left doves out of.

28:18
Tom Stanfill
This, which is I would love to hear the dove, like doves coaching an eagle.

28:25
Dan Silvert
So that’s a tough one.

28:28
Tab Norris
They would get eaten, wouldn’t they?

28:34
Dan Silvert
What doves prioritize in leadership? Doves prioritize trust, being thorough and deliberate, being thought of deliberate, very inclusive, making it a conversation. And all of these things take time. It takes time to build. Right. It’s a very patient, deep approach to leadership. Now you’ve got a dove, who, by the way, dove leadership is enormously powerful. If you read Good to Great and you look up level five leadership, you’ll.

29:12
Tom Stanfill
Find most of them are dove.

29:13
Dan Silvert
Yeah, most of them are dove. I think we talked about that last time, but now that dove is coaching an eagle, does the eagle really want to be thorough and deliberate? The eagle looking for inclusiveness in this conversation? Or does the eagle want you to cut to the chase and say, here’s what I appreciate about what you did, and here’s where you’re falling short and here’s what you need to do? The eagle wants bullet points so that they can get better. They don’t need to deepen the relationship. They need to figure out how to change in order to improve so that they sell more. That transactional approach, let me say this, it comes across as transactional, but it’s really skill building. Eagles want to build their skill sets so that they accomplish more. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

30:03
Tom Stanfill
It’s. A transactional approach to the coaching session, not necessarily transactional approach to selling.

30:08
Dan Silvert
Thank you.

30:09
Tom Stanfill
That’s what you’re saying, right?

30:11
Dan Silvert
Yes, but I’m also suggesting that in the selling process, eagles, if they’re not careful right, will come across AI transcription. If you’re a dove buying from an eagle, your red flags are up, because doves will not buy from you unless they trust you at a much deeper level than what an eagle is typically comfortable displaying. So it’s a tough sell. When eagles are with doves, they really have to lean right. And then same in reverse. Same in reverse.

30:49
Tom Stanfill
You explain what a dove typically or a dove’s approach to a coaching session. You explain the eagles need. You’re basically just saying, give them what they need. Don’t slip into dubness, don’t be peace. Basically say the objective. Just focus on what do you want to accomplish? You wanted to accomplish these three things or ask them, what did you want to accomplish on the call? Did you accomplish that and share insights or how to accomplish what you want to accomplish? Don’t worry about being sensitive to the conversation or how you deliver the message and taking time and methodology.

31:32
Dan Silvert
We talked about this last time what a dove would call conflict, an eagle would call a conversation, right?

31:38
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, exactly. A dove’s instinct is, this is going to end in conflict, which is something a dove would want to avoid. Exactly. But that takes a choice.

31:50
Dan Silvert
You want to build trust and respect with an eagle. Be candid.

31:53
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

31:54
Dan Silvert
Candor does not require elaboration. Candor requires being succinct. If a dove really wants to get an eagle’s attention, they sit down with them and say, I don’t think that worked well just like that. The eagle will say, what do you mean? Why do you say that?

32:11
Tom Stanfill
And the respect just went up.

32:13
Dan Silvert
Respect went up. You’ve challenged the eagle, and eagles respect challenges. The dove thinks, all right, we’re already in a conflict, but the eagle is like, hungry for answers. You tell me, why wasn’t that successful? If the dove is on their game, they’ll say, I don’t think you build trust. You might have displayed expertise, but just because ledgeable something doesn’t mean I should trust you. I didn’t see trust there. If a dove can bring themselves to be that succinct with an eagle, they will have their respect.

32:50
Tom Stanfill
Let me ask you a question, because this is something that I encountered being an eagle, because I’m an eagle, parrot, eagle, depending on the situation. In this situation, I think the person meeting with me knew that I was going to be an eagle and they were a dove. They, in order to be candid, wrote out what they wanted to say and delivered that message, which forced it helped they shouldn’t say force helped them to deliver a very pointed, candid message, which I found on the receiving end Of that. Very Helpful. They enjoyed it because they knew exactly what they wanted to say, and they said it. It removed any of the emotions kind of removed their emotions away from how difficult it might be. They just read it to me, and they positioned it as hey, I just want to make sure I’m communicating what I want to say.

33:37
Tom Stanfill
So I’ve thought about it. I’ve written it down. Here’s what I want to say to you. By the way, tab. This was Doug Scott, who worked with us early on in the early days of ads.

33:45
Dan Silvert
Yeah.

33:45
Tom Stanfill
What do you think about that strategy? I found it.

33:47
Dan Silvert
Strategy. I love that strategy. Because the problem isn’t the eagle, the problem is the dove. That’s Uncomfortable.

33:54
Tom Stanfill
Exactly.

33:54
Dan Silvert
Matching the moment. Match the moment, not the mirror. If matching the moment makes you uncomfortable, what are the strategies that you can employ so that you don’t miss the moment? What your colleague did is say, okay, I’m not comfortable doing this, but it’s not about me. It’s about the person I’m coaching. So my strategy is write it down.

34:14
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, I thought that’s a great I think that would help. A dove. I don’t know about an owl. They might write too much.

34:24
Dan Silvert
It would help an owl. Generally introverted people are thoughtful, and they like to journal their thoughtfulness.

34:33
Tab Norris
I totally agree with that. Did you want to be very exact? If you write it out and you think through it’s just more exact. It’s just more like you said. Quality.

34:47
Dan Silvert
I work with an entrepreneur who’s this crazy mix of high intensity parrot and high intensity owl. It’s a special combo. It’s the inventor pattern. Because parrots understand intuitively what human beings want, and owls understand how to build things. When you put those two together, you get Thomas Edison. I think elon musk. I think Musk is an owl. Parrot Interesting.

35:15
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, that is an interesting combo.

35:17
Dan Silvert
He’s pitching investors and he’s working with me, I like, play to his parrot. I’m like, okay, try this, try that, try this. He wants a script because his owl demands a script. Until he has it. He’s not confident.

35:35
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, that’s interesting. Right? That’s where they want to be. Right? Let’s talk about one more combo. Speaking of the owl. What about the owl coaching the parrot? Because we might be able to talk about that in both ways. Like the parrot coaching the owl. If I’m thinking about the owl coaching the parrot, I could see how this is the situation where someone who’s maybe not as talented in sales but very good in management, moves into management because they’re very good at process and managing the numbers and productivity and the dials and all that, and does the work. Very methodical, especially in a big company. Now you got all these parrots running around. Talk us through that.

36:25
Dan Silvert
Parrots desperately need structure in order to properly channel the gifts that they bring to the table. Owls are uniquely qualified to provide structure or teach how structure can be created. So owls have the answer. Now, do the parrots want structure? Well, how many parrots do love CRMs, love putting the data every day?

36:54
Tab Norris
Not many.

36:55
Tom Stanfill
Every day. I love the data.

36:57
Dan Silvert
Yet parrots that use CRMs properly tend to be a heck of a lot more effective than parrots that don’t. Right. So it’s really a persuasion game. The biggest how do I put this? Fault line between owls and parrots is that owls can unintentionally come across as patronizing.

37:24
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Okay.

37:26
Dan Silvert
There’s a certain expression that they have a certain quiet confidence that they possess, a certain lack of emotional need that they put out there. There are certain self satisfied way about them that parrots interpret as seriously patronizing, condescending. Parrots will push back strong on that. Really strong. If you’re an owl and you are leading parrots, you need to be really sensitive to that. So how do we handle that? Well, owls that are self deprecating okay. That actually say, yeah, I really need to improve in this area. Or last week I just made a boneheaded mistake, where they’re just bold and out there. It signals to the parrot that the owl doesn’t take themselves so seriously that they will judge me. Because parrots no one likes to be judged. Parrots are particularly sensitive to being judged. The judgmentalness of owl energy or the perception of it is the key stumbling block.

38:33
Dan Silvert
If owls can handle that smile, self deprecate connect on a human level, it’s pretty much nothing that they can’t teach parrots. You got to keep the defensive wall down. Keep that wall down, because as soon as that wall goes up, the parrot, forgive my pun here, will flip you the bird.

38:58
Tab Norris
Which bird did they flip?

38:59
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, I get it. I got it. That’s good. I think the key is I’m hearing you say this, and I’m putting myself in these situations. I think the key is, like you said, I love this word honor. Like we say, you were created by God, right? Uniquely created. So your gifts are valuable. So I’m not more valuable than you. Let’s celebrate that’s what I’m hearing you say. Let’s celebrate who God made you to be and then just go to the next level versus you’re screwed up, which is you’re wrong. I think parrots are more sensitive than the other birds. Would you agree with that? They’re the most sensitive.

39:45
Dan Silvert
No, they’re the most outwardly sensitive in their response. Owls are very sensitive people, but it is very ensconced within them. They don’t show it.

39:58
Tom Stanfill
Okay, so maybe that’s an unfair I guess I think of they’re more worried about how people and maybe it’s just because you’re aware of their response, but it’s just like they’re more worried about how people see them or give them feedback.

40:14
Dan Silvert
I think we talked about this last time, but I could just briefly recap it. The core fear that we have drives a lot of our behaviors subconsciously. Core fear of eagles is losing to an eagle. If I’m losing, that’s unacceptable. Now, eagles will prioritize losing, meaning I’ll lose a bunch of small things in order to win on the big one, but it’s got to be about winning.

40:40
Tom Stanfill
Okay?

40:41
Dan Silvert
The absence of winning is the biggest fear that eagles have, and it drives a lot of their behaviors. You understand that you can be more compassionate with them when they’re over.

40:48
Tom Stanfill
Okay?

40:49
Dan Silvert
For parrots, the biggest fear they have is disapproval.

40:53
Tom Stanfill
That’s why I said that. Yeah.

40:57
Dan Silvert
To be kicked off the island.

40:59
Tom Stanfill
I mean, it’s more personal. You don’t approve of me. Where eagles are like, are we going to win or not? Parrots are like, do you care? Okay, that’s what I was trying to say.

41:09
Dan Silvert
Exactly. If I understand that the reason a parrot is resisting me or procrastinating it’s tied in some way to disapproval, then I can use that. I can leverage that. Can I give you a quick example of this, please?

41:23
Tom Stanfill
Yes.

41:23
Dan Silvert
Okay. You’ve got a parrot that’s not doing what they’re supposed to do, and it’s typically something tedious because parrots don’t like to do tedious stuff. What you need to do is attach the tedious task to a human being that’s either suffering or happy. And then the parrot paris. Excuse me. You say to the parent, look, if you can get this done by Wednesday at 03:00, these are the people that are going to be so happy about that because it’s going to enable them to do A, B and C. If we miss that deadline, these folks are going to be really stressed out. The cascading effect of that is going to be this. I just don’t think you want to be a part of that. The parrot will be like, no way. Because for a parrot to cause suffering is awful. You’ve got to attach an emotional reality to a tedious task in order to motivate parents.

42:15
Tom Stanfill
That’s beautiful. That’s so good. What about let’s keep going with this. I want to go back to the album with a couple more questions because I want to have a couple more things, then we can wrap.

42:27
Dan Silvert
The other fear so doves fear relationship is fear.

42:31
Tom Stanfill
Say that again.

42:32
Dan Silvert
Doves fear harming relationships.

42:35
Tom Stanfill
Harming relationships, which is why doves are.

42:37
Dan Silvert
So committed to fulfilling on their commitments. And it’s why doves over commit. Nobody over commits like doves because it’s hard for doves to say the word no out loud.

42:48
Tom Stanfill
They want peace. They really want peace.

42:50
Dan Silvert
They want more than peace. They want to be the steadfast, most reliable person in everyone’s life. Impossible.

43:00
Tom Stanfill
Gosh, that’s a lot of pressure.

43:02
Dan Silvert
It’s so much.

43:03
Tom Stanfill
My wife’s a dove, I watch it and we’ve got 14 grandkids. Good luck.

43:08
Tab Norris
That’s a lot of stress.

43:10
Tom Stanfill
24 people in our family. I mean, that’s a lot of people to not say no to.

43:15
Dan Silvert
There you have it and it’s such a beautiful thing that they want.

43:18
Tom Stanfill
Oh, it’s beautiful.

43:20
Dan Silvert
They are the most likely to burn out in a professional setting because you can’t say yes to everybody. Because doves fear harming relationships, it drives a lot of their behaviors. If you’re trying to get a dove to do something differently, then you need to get them to think about the relationships they’re harming by not doing what needs to be done. There’s going to be a trade off there.

43:47
Tom Stanfill
It’s impossible to keep everybody happy. So we’re going to think about what.

43:51
Dan Silvert
We’Re someone’s going to be unhappy. Can you live with that? That’s a sign of a maturing doubt that they can live with other people being disappointed.

44:01
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, that’s hard. Okay, so the last one owls fear.

44:05
Dan Silvert
Owl’S biggest fear is pretty deep stuff. Owls are most likely to be perfectionist because they define themselves by their quality. The biggest fear owls have is that they will be revealed as the frauds they always suspected they were because.

44:25
Tom Stanfill
They’Re so aware of what perfection is, which is unattainable that to some degree there is a gap. They know it and maybe other people don’t.

44:34
Dan Silvert
Yeah.

44:35
Tab Norris
Bar is ridiculously high.

44:37
Dan Silvert
Yeah. Again, I hope I’m not just repeating myself their last session too much or last conversation over and over again. Owls define themselves by what they don’t know, not by what they do know. They have so much respect for what they don’t know that they are the least confident in decision making. Even though they have the most amount of information to make.

45:02
Tab Norris
They should be making more decisions.

45:04
Tom Stanfill
They’re I’m thinking about people in our company, Tab, that are yes. It’s so key to be able to honor each other and work together to know this. I got to go back.

45:16
Dan Silvert
What if I’m a leader and I’m really sensitive to this deep seated fears that all of us human beings have? I actually seek to work with people based upon that. In other words, I want to go out of my way for you not to be trapped by your fears. Well, now I’m a real leader because I’m taking you way beyond what your fears would limit you to. That’s what leadership is supposed to be, to take people where otherwise wouldn’t go.

45:47
Tom Stanfill
Reach your highest level.

45:49
Dan Silvert
Yeah.

45:50
Tom Stanfill
All right, I got to ask this question back to the owl. Sorry. Tab, do you have a question?

45:53
Tab Norris
Well, I was just going to say my brain went to what we teach about care more, learn more, do more, not just learn about their personality, which I’ve said before, but what are their deepest fears? I mean, that’s a whole nother level. Can you imagine if I’m really starting to try to tap into the fears of my team? I mean, that’s incredible.

46:14
Tom Stanfill
That’s real and everybody has fear. Yeah. And everybody.

46:20
Tab Norris
That’S what I like about this Daniel. It’s like this is normal. We all have them. It’s not like you’re not living in a silo that I’m the only one with my fears.

46:28
Dan Silvert
Right.

46:30
Tom Stanfill
They’ve got it together.

46:33
Dan Silvert
Eagles are like, what are you talking about?

46:35
Tab Norris
I don’t have any if I strip this away, little eagle, there’s fear in there. You just can’t see it.

46:41
Dan Silvert
That’s right.

46:42
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, exactly.

46:44
Dan Silvert
That’s good.

46:45
Tom Stanfill
If I’m an owl, back to owl talking to a parrot, because I know an owl talking to a parrot and want to influence them, their intuition is to lean on data, which makes an owl, which just leads a parrot to shut down. How do I influence what’s the best way? You gave us some good ways to encourage them and talk about how we they need structure right. That this is the perfect marriage. Right. This is a great thing. When you have a leader and a rep, both of them should see it as a positive. You bring things to the table as a team that I can’t bring and vice versa. How do we get them to see it? Because if I start talking, I’m thinking owl is going to provide a lot of data.

47:31
Dan Silvert
A lot of this, of course, is situational. Let’s say the parrot is engaging with an owl on the other side, a prospect. Now the owl leader is uniquely qualified to ask questions of the parrot sales rep to say, have you addressed this, have you addressed that? Because the chances are pretty good that prospect is thinking that even if they haven’t said it out loud and especially if they know the birds and they can share that language with one another, say, I think your prospect’s an owl and as an owl myself, here’s what I would be thinking.

48:06
Tom Stanfill
That’s great.

48:07
Dan Silvert
Right. Now you’re literally coaching the parrot from a place of expertise because you share the same. Now, let’s say you don’t share it. Okay, again, it’s not what you say to a parrot to anyone, it’s really how you say it. As long as the defense shields are down because the parrot feels fully respected by the owl, respect it. I don’t think there’s much that you can’t say. It’s all about where you’re coming from. If you’re coming from delivery well, it’s a perception of where you’re coming from. If I think you’re coming from a place of superiority, then I’m not going to hear the wisdom that you have to share. And it’s also about the relationship. If I’m an owl sales leader and I don’t invest in my parents, meaning go have a drink with them, meaning know their families, what their hobbies are. I’m just kind of this removed coach in this moment.

49:05
Dan Silvert
Well, I don’t have any connected tissue with this person. I’m not honoring where they’re coming from. I’m just telling them what I think. That’s not what leads to behavioral change.

49:18
Tom Stanfill
That’s good. I think your idea of asking questions, even if the customer doesn’t share the owl style, the fact that you’re asking questions, you’re coming from a self deprecating we’re equals honoring you. I’m not better than I always think about turning the pyramid upside down. Like, my role is to help you serve your customers and to reach your goal. That’s my goal. I’m already going into every coaching session by communicating. My role is to serve you because your role is to serve the customer. If I start there, that hopefully helps people see that, look, this isn’t about you reporting to me. This is about me serving you and helping you do that.

49:58
Dan Silvert
Obviously, what you just said is great, and it’s very natural to parents. You have a lot of parent energy. The first thing you sit down, the first thing we’re going to do is connect as human beings. Here’s my motive, here’s my place. I want you. I am passionately invested in your success. You’re starting there. That’s not where owls and eagles typically start to learn from parrots on this one, because if they would adopt that strategy and actually believe it not just check a box eagles, I’m talking to you in the audience, don’t just check the box, but genuinely right, they would start there. It keeps the fence shield low because.

50:38
Tom Stanfill
It is it all helps the eagle achieve their objective. But it has to be sincere.

50:44
Dan Silvert
It has to be. If you can’t get to that place of sincerity, then maybe you should be an individual sales contributor as opposed to a quote unquote leader. Because you’re not leading other people, you’re just commanding them to do what you think they should do. That’s not leadership, that’s being a boss.

51:00
Tom Stanfill
I always like to frame it up as influence. Right. You can’t depend on your authority for influence. Authority and influence don’t go together. You can’t force people to change what they think or believe. You have to influence them. So your position doesn’t matter. This is so good, Dan.

51:18
Dan Silvert
It’s tough. It’s really tough for eagles.

51:20
Tom Stanfill
It is hard.

51:20
Dan Silvert
The eagles will say, look, frankly, I’ve been pretty successful, so I’m just trying to help you that if you would adopt my strategies, you would be more successful. I know this because I was successful. It’s really hard to get any style that’s successful to think that there’s a to really embrace the fact that there are other ways to achieve the same objective because they’re so intimately familiar with how they got there that it’s a natural for them to try to kind of impose that on other people. And you got to let that go.

51:53
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, that can be so frustrating. If you’re like, I know how to do the thing. If you will just listen to me. You can do the thing that I’m trying to show you. Why do we have to do all this other stuff? It’s a waste of time.

52:08
Dan Silvert
Exactly.

52:09
Tom Stanfill
Welcome to the human race. But you know what? Here’s how I also think about when I’m talking about this, or teaching this in a workshop is think about this in your personal relationships, right? If you can apply this to your 16 year old or your other relationships where it’s not about conquering. Because if you turn this into conquering something with your 16 year old or whatever or your spouse or your friends, so apply it there. If they learn it there, then it becomes more natural at work. What do you think about that, Dan? Do you grow?

52:47
Dan Silvert
We find when we do these sessions, and I’m sure you’ve had the same thing, the reason people buy into the birds is because there’s a moment in the session when it crystallizes for them, oh, my goodness, that’s my brother.

52:59
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, right.

53:00
Dan Silvert
That’s my son, that’s my daughter. That’s my spouse. It clicks for them, and it typically clicks personally first, and then they’re like, oh, okay, I’m bought in. I get it. Because they know it’s true. They know it. They don’t think it’s true. They’re able to apply it to their professional lives.

53:23
Tom Stanfill
Okay.

53:23
Dan Silvert
I don’t talk about the personal life because I know I don’t need to.

53:28
Tab Norris
They’ll go there on their own.

53:29
Dan Silvert
I don’t have to lead the witness because it’s going to happen.

53:32
Tom Stanfill
It’s going to happen.

53:33
Dan Silvert
They come up to me and they’re like, oh, my goodness, you just described my marriage. And I’m like, oh, wait, really?

53:38
Tom Stanfill
Wow, I’d never seen that before. Self deprecating haha

Tab Norris

That’s great, Dan. I love it. I really do. 

Tom Stanfill

I think this is so good. I think the whole fears, like, knowing honoring people and saying you are a unique individual and this is the way God wired you, and how can I understand that? How can I help you reach your maximum potential and the impact that you have on people by learning this, whether they’re successful or not? Like, I always think about it as you’re a leader, these people have been given to you for a certain period of time, and you’re going to have a huge impact on these people, their team members. Whether maybe they’re not successful, but that might lead them to being successful because of their own stubbornness or whatever reason, or they couldn’t get over their fears, but what an opportunity to adjust how we lead and coach and mentor a team and how that game can impact them.

So I’m repeating myself, but I love it, Dan. Tab, do you have any last final thoughts?

54:39
Tab Norris
No. Once again, we could talk for hours and hours. Dan, I got a couple of great nuggets that are going to serve me. So thank you.

54:50
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, thank you.

54:52
Dan Silvert
Thank you, Tab. Thank you, Tom.

54:53
Tom Stanfill
Always appreciate the friendship. Dan, would you much success. Hope we work together again soon. I hope this helped our leaders today and maybe our reps, right. Because again, it works both ways. How can we adjust our approach to better a team member? Thanks for joining us for another episode of Sales with Aslan. 

As always, we appreciate feedback so we can get better ourselves. Thanks again, Dan.

55:17
Dan Silvert
Thank you.