Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.
The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.
The following are notes from Ep. 168 – Influence Starts Here – Part 1
In this episode, you will learn how effective discovery starts with building a Discovery Roadmap. Tom and Tab take us through a simple framework to ensure you are prepared, how to keep the decision maker engaged in the process and create a competitive advantage by asking the right questions.
Listen to the conversation here:
Or check out the full transcript:
00:14
Tom Stanfill
Welcome back to another episode of SALES with ASLAN. I’m in the studio with my more famous cohost, Tab Norris. Doctor Tab Norris, the Chuck Norris of training, as we say. Tab, how are you doing today?
00:29
Tab Norris
I’m good. I am really good. Feeling strong, feeling spry.
00:41
Tom Stanfill
Like you bench press more than you have in the past. Emotions are a big deal, Tab. Is it emotional strength?
00:51
Tab Norris
That what we’re yeah, I think that’s probably it. I’m feeling like I could climb a mountain right now. I feel like I could do hard things.
01:03
Tom Stanfill
Okay.
01:03
Tab Norris
I don’t know why.
01:04
Tom Stanfill
Well, I’ve been working out. I’ve been doing the Tab Norris plan this week. I’ve actually been really I think I’ve worked out most of Treadmill, the whole deal. What is the thing?
01:14
Tab Norris
Cardio. You’re talking about the.
01:19
Tom Stanfill
Elliptical? Yeah. I got deep knee problems, Tabs. I’m getting in shape. I’m getting back in shape. Far, it’s February, and I’m getting in shape. I’m still motivated, even though it’s still early. I got to stick with it.
01:33
Tab Norris
You look fabulous.
01:34
Tom Stanfill
You look fabulous. Thank you.
01:36
Tab Norris
Our listeners can’t see you, but you look amazing. I think I said that last week.
01:41
Tom Stanfill
We might repeat ourselves a couple of times on our podcast. We’re on 168 episodes. There might be a couple of things that we say along the way once or twice.
01:52
Tab Norris
That is true.
01:53
Tom Stanfill
Especially when we’re making stuff up. I mean, it takes you got to keep up with it. You’re making stuff up. Tab our focus. We’ve talked about many things in our focus, but it probably doesn’t go it’s not a good description focus. We’ve talked to many, but when you distill it, we talk about equipping and encouraging, but it all kind of hangs under this element or umbrella of eliminating the hard sell. If you look at, actually, the title of the podcast, it says Sales with ASMR eliminating the Hard Sell. We’ve been focusing on kind of getting back to the fundamentals, getting back to the basics as a way of crushing it in 2023. Like, if we can do the core things right, there’s not sales really isn’t complicated. You got to do a few things extremely well, and that’s what we’ve been focused on. It begins we’re kicking off the year is, what are those fundamental things that we got to do well to crush it in 2023?
02:49
Tom Stanfill
And Tab, this is up there. This is one of the fundamentals. This is the little thing that we all got to do well. We’re going to talk about building a discovery framework. You start to lead a meeting and you want to understand what’s important to the customer, we all get that everybody would answer the question correctly if we ask them. Should you ask questions? Although there’s been some debate about that, because in the Challenger, they talked about discovery was less important. Yeah, we can talk about that maybe somewhere in the podcast, but I think most of us agree that we ought to care about the customer’s point of view. We ought to care about what they think, what they want, what they care about. It may not change what they need, but it certainly changes our ability to create receptivity to our recommendation. That’s what we’re going to talk about is building a framework.
03:49
Tom Stanfill
Because what always surprised me I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but always surprises me is that when I meet with Sellers, really, throughout the world, which I like to say that because it sounds like I’m successful.
03:59
Tab Norris
Yeah. If you just say just in the state of Georgia, it doesn’t have the same feel in Valdosta.
04:05
Tom Stanfill
When the sales reps that I’ve worked with in Valdosta, the sales organizations I’ve worked with in Albany, Carrollton.
04:16
Tab Norris
No, World. Let’s stick with world.
04:20
Tom Stanfill
Across the world, globally. When I say, okay, so show me your resource template, document whatever you use to kind of guide your discovery session with your customer. Most people don’t have one.
04:37
Tab Norris
Well, here’s what they tell me. If they don’t say this, I’ve got some questions I use, what I mean? There’s no framework, but there’s questions. Or I heard this the other day. Well, I intuitively know what I need to know.
04:52
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Which I don’t agree with that. And here’s why. Because I’ve been selling our solution for 27 years, I still forget to ask certain questions, or I forget about some of my key objectives in a discovery. Maybe I’m not as smart as other people, but I still need to look at my framework to go to help me guide this conversation and make sure that I don’t miss something. Maybe people that were listening, they don’t need a framework because they’ve got a photographic memory and they remember it. That’s not a problem. But they have one. The point is, you got to have one. You need to have a framework, or you’re going to miss something. Maybe you have yours, maybe you don’t. Either way, maybe this will be an opportunity for you to either build one or improve the one that you have. That’s what we’re going to talk about.
05:49
Tom Stanfill
What’s a way to think about building an effective discovery framework.
05:53
Tab Norris
Yeah. Well, what I hear over the last.
05:59
Tom Stanfill
All over the globe, what’s the last country you were in? Tab. What part of the germany. Germany.
06:09
Tab Norris
I remember that you were there with me.
06:11
Tom Stanfill
I was, but I wasn’t sure.
06:12
Tab Norris
Eating brots and schnitzel. We had all schnitzels.
06:16
Tom Stanfill
We got tired of schnitzel.
06:17
Tab Norris
We did. Anyway, hands down, if you talk about fundamentals, this is the ultimate fundamental.
06:25
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
06:25
Tab Norris
I mean, I think back to the fundamentals, back to the basics, because it’s the number one gap. We call the money maker, right. He or she that does this best usually makes the most money.
06:40
Tom Stanfill
I really do think that discovery is the most critical capability. I really do believe, which I measured this, I think, all capabilities for anything that we want to master, whether it’s cooking, I don’t know why come and cook pottery. We talked about pottery. Pottery guy, music, selling, anything that requires skills involved. There’s a set of capabilities that you need to develop to be successful. In sales, discovery is one of those critical capabilities, and it needs to be measurable to know that you’re successful at it. Really you’re successful at Discovery if four things happen, and I think the fourth one has a lot to do with how you uncovered the first three. One is you understand what they need, right? You understand what they really need, what they really want, who are the decision makers? And then what is the drivers? How are they going to make the decision?
07:41
Tom Stanfill
You got to know what do they really need? It may not be what they say they need, but you understand what they really need. What are the decision, who are decision makers, what are decision drivers? Also you’re successful if you’re creating receptivity to ultimately your recommendation. Because I think the biggest benefit of conducting Discovery well is not only do you get information which is critical because you can’t meet the need if you don’t know what the need is. You’re also, as you listen to people and you understand what’s important to them, that’s where the relationship is built. It’s not when you’re talking.
08:24
Tab Norris
Yeah, no, exactly. We like people that get us talking, don’t we?
08:29
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
08:31
Tab Norris
Don’t like it when people talk at me.
08:34
Tom Stanfill
Well, I think that’s probably a good place to start is to kind of set up. We always talk about that when we talk about it this way, we say every time you want to influence somebody, there’s two points of view. There’s your point of view, how you see the world, what you want to communicate, what you want to accomplish, what’s important to you. There’s like they need to pay more for something, or they need to buy your solution, even though they’re happy with their existing solution, whatever it is. The thing that we and it could even be about politics, it could be about any conversation, but you have your point of view and then the other person has on the other side of the world. Right? If you think of it on the globe, you’re on the North Pole and you have a point of view, you see one way is up, and then you’re talking to somebody else on the opposite side of the world, and they see a completely different point of view.
09:25
Tom Stanfill
Their way up is very different than your way. You got this two polarized points of view. To me, I think that perfectly captures our goal and influence as you see the world totally different. How if we’re the one in sales, how do we get that other person to see our point of view. To me, that’s what discovery is all about. When we talk about doing that, what most people do is they start talking. They say, okay, let me tell you, or show you why you need to see the world differently. The other person goes, well, let me tell you why you’re wrong.
10:04
Tab Norris
It goes back and forth like that. I’m right, you’re wrong. No. I’m right. You’re wrong. Yeah, exactly. Watch it all the time.
10:11
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. As soon as that starts, that argument starts, which has happened a lot in the last 40 years of my marriage. Influence in all people do is, here’s why you need to change your political viewpoint. The other person says, here’s why you’re wrong and whatever you want to talk about. In order for you to get somebody else to see a different point of view, we have to first validate their point of view. I always like to distinguish between hearing and validating. Like, I hear my wife all the time. I hear her, I know what she’s saying. I struggle to validate.
10:49
Tab Norris
Right? Yeah, you don’t want to validate. And why do you think that is? Why do you struggle to validate?
10:56
Tom Stanfill
Because it feels like I’m agreeing with her.
10:58
Tab Norris
That’s exactly right. So you don’t want to say it. I just had this last night talking about and the whole time I’m going, you’re wrong. You’re thinking wrong. That’s a bunch of crap. Whatever. It just angers her.
11:16
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
11:16
Tab Norris
And she knows I’m right. That’s what’s crazy. That doesn’t matter because I’m listening to her, but I’m not validating her.
11:24
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. You hear what they’re saying? I hear a lot of times people, but they don’t if you ever like somebody say something and then you’ll say something, they’ll just say something else. I don’t think you’re getting what I’m saying. Maybe they do, but you don’t feel like they’re considering it. I do think part of it is that you don’t want to validate because you think you’re agreeing with them, like they’re going to go, oh, you’re agreeing with me. I think for me, it’s actually more of a flaw and strategy. I believe that if I tell them a different point of view, I always talk about my visual for influence is a courtroom.
12:11
Tab Norris
Yeah.
12:12
Tom Stanfill
That’s just how I’m wired. I’m like an attorney. I think like an attorney. That’s what shows up when somebody says something that I disagree with. I’m like, well, let’s debate this, and the best argument will win. You think that, well, let me say something different, and then you’ll see if my argument is sound. You’ll see why you’re wrong.
12:32
Tab Norris
Yeah, I’m the same way. I think I’m operating the exact same way. Probably not abnormal. No, that’s a lot of people.
12:39
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, well, there’s the other side of it. The other side of it is I guess not the other side of it. Another way to handle is not say anything.
12:46
Tab Norris
Well, that’s true. You just kind of sit back, listen, you have no opinion, and you don’t just listen. And that’s got its own problems.
12:53
Tom Stanfill
That’s got its own problems. We need to eventually talk right now. We need to eventually share. I also think in our personal relationship, which is different for me with customers or any business relationship, is if we’ve heard the story a bunch, let’s just shift gears and talk about life outside of work. When I’m talking to someone I know really well and they’re saying the same thing they’ve said for 50 times, why did that happen? Why did that happen? You’re like, well, because you ate that.
13:30
Tab Norris
We’ve had this conversation.
13:31
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, why do I keep that? Because you ate that. You don’t want to go, well, tell me what you’re thinking. You ate the thing you’re allergic to, and you have the same reaction. Okay. It’s like, why are we doing this? The whole reason to bring this up, Tab, is we’re talking about two things. One, we do need information, right. That’s critical if we’re going to sell. More importantly, which is what we’re focused on now, unless we validate the other person, in other words, they feel heard if you ask them the question, hey, does that person really get you? Do they really understand how you feel? Do they understand what’s important to you? Do they feel like they really care about you? Did they really listen? If they say yes, then you validated them. I think the best way to do that, as we talked about it, is just to feed it back to them until they say exactly.
14:32
Tom Stanfill
So this is how you feel. They say exactly, then that creates an emotional connection that allows you to then influence. That leads us to what we’re talking about. We can’t do that, though, unless we’re prepared. We need a roadmap, tab. We need a roadmap. It starts with a roadmap. So are you ready? Are we ready to dive in?
14:56
Tab Norris
Let’s go. Let’s dive into our roadmap.
14:59
Tom Stanfill
I like to build the roadmap around five PS. I’m kind of known for you are.
15:04
Tab Norris
Known for your P?
15:06
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, you got a lot of P’s.
15:09
Tab Norris
Have you ever had two or three LS or maybe an R, four R leave behind? You are a list guy, there’s no doubt about that.
15:21
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, well, it helps you kind of remember things. We probably won’t get into all the peas today, but the peas. I don’t know when I landed on this, but this really works for me as a framework for leading discovery. The first P is profile. What is the profile of the person that you’re going to be meeting with? Which probably has to do with company, but what’s the basic information you need to know about who you’re meeting with so that you can prepare intelligent questions? That’s the point of profile I’m walking into this meeting. You need to know this before discovery, but it’s part of your discovery roadmap because it’s information you’re probably going to confirm, like size of company, market pressures, products they sell, who they sell to or whatever. What are they currently doing now? Or just all the things that you need to know about the company, by the way, you want to get that information before you meet with them as best you can because they’re bored by this information.
16:31
Tab Norris
Yeah, they don’t want to talk about that. They’re like, you should have done your homework because all that stuff is available. Profile information is available without it talking to anyone.
16:41
Tom Stanfill
Typically, sometimes it’s not, but I mean, like what they’re currently using, for example.
16:46
Tab Norris
Right, but 80% to 90% of it is, and if you show up with none of it hurts your credibility.
16:57
Tom Stanfill
That’s a really good point that you’re making, Tab. If the higher up you go in the organization, you need to know it before you go in. I would say if I’m working, I think of organizations simply three levels. There’s the people that are the production level, operations, operation. That’s the word I was looking for, operations level. They’re doing the work, they’re making it happen. There’s executive level. Right. If I’m moving towards the higher part of executive sorry, the higher part of manage and executive level, I need to know this before I meet with them. They do not want to spend time getting me up to speed on anything.
17:37
Tab Norris
And they bust you. I had a meeting yesterday, and I was told there were eight people in this deal. I was told this one guy is the guy, he’s got all the influence and don’t worry about his rank, just trust me.
17:52
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
17:52
Tab Norris
I got him all spotlighted and all that stuff. Well, I mean, out of the shoot, he’s just firing things at me to see if I’ve done my homework. I understand. I know this. I know that. It was awesome. It was a test. It was a test. I think it was a test to see how I handled it too, because I was setting up the agenda and he didn’t even let me. He just started hitting me with questions. It was awesome. To your point, you better be ready. And I do think you’re right. I think the higher up you go.
18:29
Tom Stanfill
The less time, the more they just.
18:32
Tab Norris
Want to get like this.
18:33
Tom Stanfill
The way that I think about it is when I move up to that level, executive level, upper management is going back to my court now. You are going to court. You need to be able to present your argument. You don’t need to do any discovery. You need to plan on discovery around some other areas that we’re going to talk about, like things you don’t know about them potentially, like their strategy or something along those lines, but you need to know the basics. Like anything you possibly can get from somebody else and only focus on things that only they would know. So the profile is where you start. What do I need to know about this company before I walk in? Or this individual before I walk in? Most likely it’s going to be an organization that will help me prepare intelligent questions so I don’t spend time boring everybody with my question.
19:31
Tom Stanfill
As we move into the other piece, you’ll see, some of these questions are very specific, and you can ask them in a way if something about it. I know your current competitor is or I know so and so has stolen X market share from you. Or it’s also a way to impress them because a lot of times when people get in discovery, they’re like, okay, here we go. This is going to be boring. A, you’re not going to listen to me, but you’re going to probably pitch me. You’re waiting for your turn to talk, and you’re going to ask me stupid questions. I mean, it’s and their level of disclosure of what they’ll share with you is going to be determined by how well you ask questions, the type of questions you ask, how you position your questions, how well you listen. This is critical to prepare by focusing on the profile.
20:14
Tom Stanfill
What do you need to know about the organization or individual before you meet with them or confirm once you do meet with them? So it’s just a general profile. That’s the first P tab. Got it. Second P is point of view. Notice how it starts with a P. Tab it is a view point of view. I think of I don’t know if this is the way you think about it, Tab, but I think of it as a bridge. They have a current state. This is true of everybody you meet with. By the way, if you meet with people and you sell whatever you sell, they think the questions are going to be all geared around that product or solution.
20:57
Tab Norris
Yeah, you’re guiding them. You’re asking questions that lead to their solution. That all ends with this big bang and we go, how can I not have it?
21:08
Tom Stanfill
Exactly. It’s going to be around, how do I ask questions to turn the need for the thing that I sell? This is where you want to stop and you want to say no. Like, for example, it means real simple example, you’re invited a contractor over to do work on your bathroom. They’re like so you expect them to ask questions about, what do you want to do with the bathroom?
21:28
Tab Norris
What about that toilet there?
21:30
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, but if they’re smart and they back up and they say, what are you doing with the house? What’s your plans? Let’s back up now. That’s the whole goal of the point of view is like, let’s step back now. They still may talk to you based on more specifically your solution. Either way, big picture. What you want to do is start with where are they now? What’s their current state and what’s their desired future state? So that’s kind of the bridge. Like, they’ve got a current state. This is where I am now. Where do you want to go? Like, it’s just that simple. Where do you want to go? What is it that you desire? What’s the destiny? What do you really want? And always think about it. Is there so formal and an informal? Well, I need to produce this number. I need to cut this cost, or I need to get this done, or I need to improve this, or someone told me to get this done, but I want to go like, what’s beyond that?
22:28
Tom Stanfill
At the end of the six months or a year or three months or whatever the time frame, what is it that you really want? Again, the better questions I ask, the better information I’m going to get and the more they’re going to open up to me. And then the last section, right? So I’ve got a current state. I’ve got a desired future state. Now they got a bridge. They thought about something. Yeah, they haven’t just gone, well, I don’t know what I’m going to do.
22:56
Tab Norris
I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m just doing my job.
22:59
Tom Stanfill
Just show up and show that I’m here and that’s where I want to get I thought about nothing. They have a plan. What’s their plan to get us another P tab? I’m not fitting that in, though. What’s their plan to get to that desired statement? That’s the point of view, current state, future state plan.
23:24
Tab Norris
It’s more, tell me where are you guys going? Tell me where you’re going. How do you think the best way to accomplish that? I mean, you really want to understand their perspective of what they think because they got something to your point. They got something their mind, and sometimes it’s brilliant. Right? You go, oh my gosh, that’s absolutely phenomenal. Other times you’re like, but we have to know that.
23:48
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, I have to know that. They’re going to try to pull you into a conversation around your product and you got to keep backing them up.
23:57
Tab Norris
Exactly right?
23:58
Tom Stanfill
You got to keep backing them up. Well, I understand that you don’t need a copier right now, but I’m saying we do business automation. What is it that you’re trying to accomplish in your business? Because we sell business, not just this one machine. We can sell all kinds of products. This is why people want it. We got to sell services and a total solution and move from a product. Well, the customer lifetimes will lead you to that product and you’re saying, let’s back up and figure out I don’t even know if you need this product.
24:25
Tab Norris
Yeah, right.
24:26
Tom Stanfill
I don’t know if you need to assess your current health care plan. I don’t know if you need to assess your current payroll. I don’t know if you need to I want to learn. What is it trying to do? You try to sell your business. You’re trying to grow your business. You’re trying to wear it, and you continue to back up, and then they’re going to finally tell you something, and you say, what are you working on? Why have you chosen to do that? To get to your desired destination. This is what they care about.
24:52
Tab Norris
By the way, can I tell you an example of a client where I watched this play out, and it taps into something you just said, too? Sometimes the customer is they cause the problem. Like, for instance, this is a company, and they sell technology. I mean, they sell equipment. He calls in, and he’s doing a discovery meeting, right? Yeah, I just want to talk to you about some different solutions is for your warehouse and blah, blah, blah. Well, this guy knew the company he worked for had bought some things from them in the past. He starts his discovery, and he goes, well, tell me about some of the equipment that you have in the plant, blah, blah. The guy goes up, I can tell you right now, one of the things we have is printers. We bought tons of printers from you guys right now.
25:45
Tab Norris
Right now, the last time I looked, you guys were way too expensive. I’ve looked at he’s just rolling along. I am in the market for those printers, blah. He’s just rambling around these printers. How he’s figured out that they’re not a good solution for them.
26:00
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, right.
26:00
Tab Norris
The sales rep, I’m just thinking, well, this is going in the wrong direction. And the sales rep blew me away. He kind of goes, hey, totally get it. Totally get it. It sounds like you figured that out. I’m calling for much more than that. You may not even know this. We do a lot more than just printers. I really wanted to understand your whole operation, the whole plant, the whole manufacturing facility. If I can get kind of an understanding of all the things that you’re doing and trying to accomplish, we may be able to come up with some solutions. I love it. It was exactly what you’re talking about. But he was in control. He had his framework. What happened, he ended up the end of the story is awesome. He uncovered all kind of things, and the guy goes, I always pigeonholed you. I thought you guys only did this.
26:49
Tom Stanfill
This happens over all the time. Oh, you sell vaccine or you sell that vaccine. I need that vaccine out’s. Vaccine? Well, I actually sell 50 things. I feel all kinds or whatever product it is. What I love about that approach, the way the rep did handle it, is first of all, he created eliminated pressure. Like, the guy says, hey, the reason he immediately starts off with, I don’t need that, I’m buying it from somebody else. Which is also he trusts the rep enough to say that rather than just take it, because he just like, look, don’t try to sell me. It’s kind of what he’s like, don’t just shut it down. He’s like, hey, listen, maybe you don’t need that and maybe this isn’t the right thing, but I really want to figure out what you’re working, like, what’s going on in your world, because we have other solutions potentially, maybe not, that could help you.
27:47
Tom Stanfill
We back that person up and say, let’s just talk about your world, but we got it. Here’s an important thing about that. You have to let the person know there’s a reason to talk about something bigger.
27:58
Tab Norris
It’s not just because it’s going to be fun or whatever. I mean, there’s a purpose behind it, solutions and help you out as you guys grow.
28:09
Tom Stanfill
Don’t you just sell paper? I just sell paper, but I got.
28:15
Tab Norris
A lot of different colors.
28:16
Tom Stanfill
I’d like to know what’s happening in your organization globally. Why? Because you just sell paper.
28:21
Tab Norris
But I have construction paper. I have three ring binder papers going.
28:28
Tom Stanfill
Out, baby paper, maybe. Yeah, but we do have to be able to position it as why do we want to broaden the conversation? We do need to give them a reason why we’re going to broaden the conversation. The other thing.
28:45
Tab Norris
That point of view is huge because I mean, profile got it, but this is where it really gets rolling. I’m with you. You got to really be prepped and ready on that point of view, and.
28:53
Tom Stanfill
This is where you expand their understanding or uncover the need for a solution. A lot of times when people are selling a solution, right, typically they have their favorite couple of products and that’s what they sell. When they’re trying to move from selling their favorite product to selling a total solution, what they struggle with is like, well, how do I position all that together? Let the customer do the work. Let them tell you all the things that they’re trying to accomplish and that will tell the story of what you then need to recommend versus, well, what about this? What about this? Well, it’s like, well, we sell 50 things and we need to do a better job from selling one thing or two things to sell them. Ten things or 20 things or 30 things or 50. Well, just let just ask the customer, what are you trying to do?
29:50
Tom Stanfill
And then we’ll go away. Come up with how do we can help you. Do that. They have a current state. They have a desired future state. What is their plan to get there? And then you can step back. Go now I know as I talk to them about their plan, I now know where they may have needs. Well, we’ve got to work with an outside company to do the step four of our plan. Why is that?
30:17
Tab Norris
Yeah, I got a question for you, Tom.
30:20
Tom Stanfill
Why part of your discovery framework?
30:24
Tab Norris
This is A-P-I don’t know what the P stands for, but we see this all the time. Why do you think this is so hard for salespeople?
30:38
Tom Stanfill
Sorry, you got a second point?
30:39
Tab Norris
No, I just would love to know your perspective because we see it all the time. They profile, whatever, but we get to point of view. I see a lot of salespeople struggle. They have a hard time really digging deep, like really doing it. They may give it lip service, kind of they got a couple of questions, but what you’re talking about is different. It’s like really understanding their perspective and their point of view.
31:04
Tom Stanfill
I think it’s two things. I think, one, they’re wasting time. Why do I need to go into all this other stuff? Because I don’t know where you’re in a hurry. I need to hit a number. I think smaller percentage of secondary reason. I think the number one reason is people don’t know what to do.
31:32
Tab Norris
Okay, that’s good.
31:34
Tom Stanfill
If I ask you a question, it’s you could see the guy that does the shower repair. He does the tile in the shower, right? He’s coming in, he’s got his knee pads on, and you can see the owner. Tell him, we do more than showers. We can do any renovations. They tell the shower guy is a bathroom shower guy. He’s like, ask the customer. He goes, So what else are you all doing?
32:07
Tab Norris
I only got one shower.
32:12
Tom Stanfill
Well, we got a problem across crawl space, and we’re thinking about moving. He’s like, okay, back to the shower.
32:20
Tab Norris
Somebody told me I had to ask you that.
32:22
Tom Stanfill
They go back to the office and go, I tried to ask them. They said, there’s something I think it brings up conversations. Either they don’t know how to position the question, why am I going to move the conversation from the product that they typically talk to me about. Like, I remember working with reps that would sold the hotels. They would go in the bowels of the hotel, and they would meet to the people that bought all the products and the shampoos and all the resources and supplies and everything for the hotel. And we’re like, well, what’s going on? What other things? You’re just on this person. They basically got their checklist of saying, I’m out of this stuff. If they’re going to talk to that person and start broadening the conversation, that person is probably going to say, I don’t know.
33:07
Tab Norris
Right? Yeah.
33:10
Tom Stanfill
Or they move up the ladder and they talk to somebody and that person says, why are you asking? Or maybe they start talking about accounting or something. The person is like, I don’t know what to do. I think we have to get comfortable with where the conversation might go and learn how to position the questions in a way that everybody understands why it makes sense to move in that direction. I think that’s a big deal. I would say it’s probably not going to go well if you first try it.
33:42
Tab Norris
Yeah. Just like anything, got to practice, get more comfortable. Yeah.
33:50
Tom Stanfill
If you stay in your comfort zone, you’re never going to grow. Life begins outside your comfort zone. The fear keeps us in the our lane. I’m like you just start to ask a couple of questions. I remember you did this at a company we worked with where you got the reps to ask three questions, just three. It was a way of getting them to understand more was going on than what their perception of need was. They talk to customers about the same products and they say, just ask three questions. I would say that the same thing. Just ask a couple more questions about their point of view. Where are they now, where do they want to go and what’s their plan to get there? And I think that’s the key. I want to highlight two key words though, as we think about point of view tab.
34:37
Tom Stanfill
I want to highlight, I want to make sure everybody circles two keywords. One is pain.
34:45
Tab Norris
Pain.
34:47
Tom Stanfill
So this is another P word tab. We got P everywhere, keys everywhere. When you think about their plan, I want to know this is another keyword. I want to know where the pain is. Okay, where are they nervous? Like, we’re in the middle of an initiative in Aslan, right? If you talk to us, we’d say, well, where do we talk to? How our leadership meeting? We talked about where we want to be, what’s our plan? It’s really clear we have a current state. Really clear. If you talk to us, we tell you our plan to get to our future state. We could tell you that now, the next question would be, well, what are you nervous about?
35:28
Tab Norris
Yeah, what’s the problem? What are the problems? Where’s the pain? What’s going on?
35:34
Tom Stanfill
That’s where the beauty, that’s where the money is. That’s what’s most important. Where are they nervous? What are the pain points? Because pain is emotional. Because if they’ve got like they talk about their plan and you go, where do you really confident, well, we’ve done this a million times. I know that’s going to happen. I’ve got this vendor, I’ve got this thing. This over here, this is all gray and fuzzy.
36:02
Tab Norris
We don’t really know exactly.
36:03
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Or I’m nervous about that. I want to focus on the pain. That’s a key word as I’m uncovering point of view. The next word is not start with.
36:13
Tab Norris
A P tab oh, great.
36:15
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
36:17
Tab Norris
All falling apart now. Now I got to remember P and then an R. What letter is it? An easy letter?
36:23
Tom Stanfill
I got to remember W. I’m never going to remember W. You can just put question mark. The other word is why. People don’t ask why enough around the.
36:36
Tab Norris
Pain or why everything.
36:39
Tom Stanfill
Why ask five why ask why? Our goal is to help because we’re integrating two companies. We’re doing this because why are you integrating? Why does that matter? Because we kind of take it as face value, but we don’t really understand it. We need to do this because we’re integrating our two companies. Why do you have to do this because you’re integrating two companies? Well, because we all got to be on the same language. Why.
37:11
Tab Norris
Can you say what too? Why is that a big deal? What will be the kind of what’s the downside? It’s just kind of being curious about the why and the what around.
37:22
Tom Stanfill
Keep digging until the point is keep digging until it makes sense. If it doesn’t make sense, it probably doesn’t make sense to the person you’re talking to. Or it does and they know it so well, they’re explaining something that’s familiar to them, but it’s not familiar to anybody else. You got to know and you might find out it’s not a big deal.
37:43
Tab Norris
Well, and you made me think of something, Tom, that I think is really important. It also can impact decision. Are you talking to the right person? Because you keep asking that and they go, what, I really don’t know. My boss is just banging the drum on this thing all the time. I really don’t know why. That’s another great reason to keep asking why exactly.
38:05
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, if you don’t and that’s the other thing too. As we talked about trying to get an understanding of their point of view is we focus on that and they can’t really explain that or you can tell they’re representing somebody else. Like a lot of times they’ll use language. This is a thing that either they don’t understand or it’s been created by somebody else that allows you to say, well, who created that? Now, like you said, you’re now uncovering if they can’t explain the overall point of view, then you can tell a little fuzzy about the plan or the destination or now you kind of go, well, where did this come from? That allows you to start moving higher up in the organization if needed.
38:55
Tab Norris
Yeah, that’s good. All right. That everything for a point of view?
39:01
Tom Stanfill
I think that’s enough on the point of view tab. I think that covers point of view. We’ll finish the rest in part two.
39:10
Tab Norris
Are you sure you want to go? I’m going to ask why.
39:17
Tom Stanfill
I don’t know. Tab, how long have we been going?
39:19
Tab Norris
We’ve been going for about 40 minutes.
39:21
Tom Stanfill
All right. I think you’re right, tab, I’m glad.
39:25
Tab Norris
This is why you’re let’s let them be out there going, I just want more. No, don’t stop. Don’t stop.
39:31
Tom Stanfill
All right. I’m so hungry. I want to give our listeners our vast global audience. I just always want to give them probably too much, but I think you’re right. I think this is a good place to break. I’m glad you said that. This is why you are the best co host in America. Not Canada, just America. We come back for part two, we’ll dive into the other three P’s. Tab. They are three PS. I’m going to try to limit my description of the other three P’s without using another P word. That’s going to be my promise. My promise and proof.
40:09
Tab Norris
We may need to change our podcast to Pasales with Aslan.
40:19
Tom Stanfill
All right, so let’s wrap it up. We’ll wrap up this episode of the Discovery Framework here, and we’ll pick it back up and we’ll hit the last three. Tab, as always, we want to hear from our listeners. We’re lonely. I mean, first of all, we’re lonely. We want to hear from them. If anybody out there in this vast our vast listening audience has input comments, please share them with us. Hit us up on LinkedIn. You can reach out to us at azlan. We’d love to know. Also, I would love everybody right now. Tab, this is going to be kind of an imperative. It sounds like a P word, but it’s not. I want everybody to stop right now and rate the podcast right now. Just stop whatever you’re doing driving. Pull over the side of the road. If you’re talking to your spouse. Well, you probably wouldn’t be talking to your spouse.
41:06
Tom Stanfill
But listen, podcast, that’d be bad.
41:10
Tab Norris
You may need to work on that.
41:11
Tom Stanfill
You’re working out. Yeah, because here’s why. Tab and I need more money. Yes. You agree?
41:20
Tab Norris
Yes, I do. 100%.
41:21
Tom Stanfill
We need more money. If we need in order for us to get more money, we need sponsorship. Tab, what’s the sponsor? We want for us to be Bass Pro Shops.
41:31
Tab Norris
I don’t know. I just personally.
41:36
Tom Stanfill
Bass Pro Shops, I don’t think we’re their target audience.
41:41
Tab Norris
That’s why it really worked. And it doesn’t start with a P. No, we know that.
41:48
Tom Stanfill
Peter. Peter Millar. There you go.
41:55
Tab Norris
Peter Lamar. Now I like Peter Malar.
41:57
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. We need something we are looking for if people will rate us right, that’ll help us get another sponsor or another. Like, we have one. We have one. It’s a silent sponsor. Right now we’re sponsored by Aslan.
42:13
Tab Norris
That is true.
42:14
Tom Stanfill
That is we’re sponsored by Aslan. And they’re doing they’re paying it. But we need more money. Maybe we should create t shirts, tabs tom need more money.
42:22
Tab Norris
Yeah, that’s going to go over real well.
42:23
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, I don’t know. That might be self centered. After we think about it. Seriously, thank you for joining us for another episode SALES with ASLAN, and hopefully we’ll see you on our maybe I guess we won’t see you, but we’ll know that you’re there in our next episode.
