Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.
The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.
The following are notes from Ep. 154 – Selling in a Recession
In this episode, Tom and Tab sit down with Chris White, sales expert, speaker, and best-selling author of The Six Habits of Highly Effective Sales Engineers.
With a potential recession on the horizon, Tom, Tab and Chris get into the current economic conditions of the market we live and work in, how to navigate the uncertainty we’re all facing, and how to remain focused on our true goal as sales professionals: to serve our customers and keep their best interests at heart.
Listen to the conversation here:
Or check out the full transcript:
00:03
Tom Stanfill
Chris White. Welcome to the show, man. Good to see you. Thanks for joining us today.
00:08
Chris White
Thank you very much, Thomas.
00:10
Chris White
Good to see you both.
00:12
Tab Norris
Yes. Always fun to be with you.
00:15
Chris White
Good to see you, Tab.
00:16
Tom Stanfill
Tab. Do you know what we call Tab, Chris?
00:20
Chris White
The doctor, I believe. Am I right about that?
00:28
Tom Stanfill
Two things, doctor, I’m sorry to put you on the spot. But yes, the doctor. And we also call him the Chuck Norris of sales training. That was dubbed by one of our clients, I think, right?
00:39
Tab Norris
Oh, that was what… Tyler?
00:42
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, that’s right.
00:45
Chris White
I think I like “doctor” better.
00:47
Tom Stanfill
We need a nickname for you, Chris. As of now as, the number one best-seller. Not number two. Not number three. Not number four. Not in the top ten. You don’t have to spin this at all. There’s no spinning. You are the number one best selling author on Amazon. That’s incredible, my friend. Seriously. I don’t even have a shred of jealousy.
01:12
Chris White
I know.
01:12
Tab Norris
I’m just glad I know him. Just to hang out with him.
01:16
Tom Stanfill
I’ll never forget we were talking. I mean, when were we in San Francisco?
01:22
Chris White
It was November of 2018.
01:24
Tom Stanfill
November of 2018. Okay. This is why there was a double rainbow. Literally two rainbows. Seriously? And Chris was like, I don’t know. I’m going to write a book. Maybe. I don’t know. If you had solidified the plan to write the book, you were thinking about starting your own gig. Those ideas were swirling around. We were whining and dining you, trying to get you to join Aslan, and you’re like, I can’t, you guys. I got stuff to do. I’m too busy. I got stuff to do. Then you do it. You write the book, which you did in like, a 10th of the time that it took me. Now your number one best seller, Six Habits. Hold on. Yeah, it’s “six habits of highly effective sales engineers.” I know, I can’t read it, though, man. That’s congrats.
02:13
Chris White
Thank you very much, guys. It’s funny, Tom. That conference is really what sparked it. I had thought about writing a book for a while, but at that conference, it was a sales conference. The one thing I observed, I watched all these people on stage giving their pitches and talking about their model and their formula, and look, they were all good, but none of them were particularly blow you away. Right. They weren’t doing anything that I couldn’t do. The one thing they all had in common, they’d all written a book and then started their business. It was at that conference that I came to peace with the fact that the only chance I ever had of actually doing what I wanted to do was to write a book. And so there you go. I hired, like, a publishing coach within six months of that conference, and the book was published within two months of hiring him.
03:22
Tom Stanfill
There’s a little truth nugget right there. If you need to do something difficult, which all of us do, hire a coach or get a coach. We talk about that a lot.
03:33
Tab Norris
That’s come up on multiple podcasts, Tom. There’s somebody out there who’s done this. Find them, hire them, work with them, utilize them.
03:45
Tom Stanfill
Somebody knows how to help you get what you want. Somebody knows how to help you get what you want. Just find that person. What I loved about hiring a coach for me is it trapped me. I had to do something. I was like, okay, so we’re going to meet and they’re going to tell me what to do. They tell me what to do and I have to do it. And they say, well, that sucks. One of my coaches said, Stop writing.
04:09
Tab Norris
Here’s your tip.
04:11
Tom Stanfill
Stop.
04:12
Chris White
Well, I know there’s a couple of things we’re going to talk about, but I’m inspired to share the sales lesson that I learned from my coach.
04:21
Tom Stanfill
Okay.
04:22
Chris White
Because when I reached out to him, literally one of the first things he said to me in our first conversation was, chris, what will it mean to your career and to your life to have published a book?
04:39
Tom Stanfill
Wow.
04:41
Chris White
And I went, wow. It would mean everything to me. He literally invited me to put myself in the place of the book’s been published. What does that mean to you? What does that mean to your career? In July, he had me get excited about that moment. It’s such a good lesson in sales, right. What would this mean to your organization if you’ve implemented something like our solution and you’ve resolved these problems right now? Immediately they’re thinking about the outcomes.
05:20
Tom Stanfill
Right.
05:20
Chris White
They’re immediately thinking about not how much it’s going to cost, how much time and how much effort, but what the satisfaction and return on investment might look like, right?
05:32
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
05:34
Chris White
He taught me a sales lesson and.
05:37
Tom Stanfill
He didn’t even know it. That is such an important lesson. I read this the other day, and this may be a quote or saying that I just missed my entire sales career, but I was actually walking into some real estate office and it was on the wall. It says when you give people facts, they think, but when you get them to listed a motion or when you elicit a motion, they act. Especially in the market that we’re in now, I think for most of us, it’s hard to get people there’s a lot of fear out there. It’s hard to get people to act. We’ve got to get them to emotionally experience our recommendation and get them. That’s a different skill set, but it starts with kind of helping them dream about, what does this look like? What’s the personal application like? I love that it was personal.
06:25
Tom Stanfill
A lot of times we’re dealing with our customers, working with our decision makers, we think about their organization, right. What’s the organization trying to do? I can easily look back that I’m meeting with this person. They’re talking about the company, but what if we shift it and go, what does it mean to you? I remember asking Sean Vintel, our friend at American Airlines, and when we asked him that question, he goes, Legacy. I’m like, wow, so you’re really focused on legacy here. I was so motivated by that. It was a completely changed the conversation. This wasn’t just about a training initiative and how to get people to convert more customers and upsell, and it was about legacy. It’s about investing in people. And it’s a cool, great point.
07:06
Chris White
Yeah, really good point.
07:10
Tom Stanfill
Chris, as we talked the other day, we started just catching up, and you shared some thoughts about the recession and receptivity and challenges that we’re facing. I thought this would be a good podcast, and we wanted to celebrate the fact that your book is number one. So congratulations on that. I wish we had some noises tab. Do we have, like, any celebratory?
07:32
Tab Norris
I can make noises, but I don’t think we really want it.
07:35
Tom Stanfill
We’ll do that on the back end. Our producer, Sam Kathy by the way, I was about to mention our producer Sam Cassidy, who could maybe add some cool celebratory sounds or bless. We know of you because of Scott Cassidy. My friend and brother Scott, if you’re listening to his podcast, we appreciate you. Because of you may not have even written the book without Scott, because he’s the one.
08:02
Chris White
That’s a true statement.
08:03
Tom Stanfill
Did he invite you to that conference? It’s a Selling Power conference, by the way. I want to plug our friends at Selling Power.
08:09
Chris White
Yeah, no, here’s the irony is that he and I had recently reconnected because went to high school together, lost touch for quite a few years. We had recently reconnected just after he joined Aslan, and I had just recently taken over a sales enablement role with a tech company. So we realized that were connected there. I went out to that conference. I signed up for my conference on my own and walked in, and of.
08:40
Tom Stanfill
Course, there’s no way. Okay.
08:42
Chris White
I was like, okay, now the world is just okay.
08:47
Tom Stanfill
I did not know. That is crazy. I love it. Well, Scott, for those of you who don’t know, Scott, he’s an adult and now very successful executive at another company. Love the Cassidy clan. Let’s talk about the recession. There’s the looming recession that’s out there, whether it happens or not. Even the thought that it might happen and what’s happening with inflation, prices, et cetera, people are a little tighter. It seems to be more difficult to sell. I loved your take on it as you were talking about, what’s the typical response, which is the intuitive response to a recession is actually really backfires.
09:37
Chris White
Yeah, well, and it’s sort of twofold. Look, if I’m fully honest with both of you, I recognize this in myself. As you guys well know, I sell sales training predominantly to technology companies, and I work with a lot of small to mid sized companies. In the past two or three months, I have had a few companies pull back on some things were going to do. One of the things that they cited was uncertainty in the economic conditions of the world.
10:16
Tom Stanfill
Right?
10:16
Chris White
So, of course, that makes me, as a sales professional, begin to get concerned and fearful. As a result, what do I start doing? Right? I start worrying more about, quote, hitting the number. I start worrying more about me closing the deals that I thought might be on the forecast instead of what we all, as sales professionals, know in our heart of hearts we should be doing, which is really focusing on the customer and what’s in their best interest and what are they trying to accomplish. And Tom, you wrote the book unreceptive. I’ll just use the term buyers tend to become, when times get tougher, more unreceptive to the sales professional or the sales reach, if I can say that. I feel like there’s two forces that are happening here. Honestly, it was refreshing when you reached out and gave me a call. It was refreshing to me because every time we talk, I’m reminded of the principles that we’re supposed to be out there teaching others, right?
11:26
Chris White
Which is people are more unreceptive. We need to work that much harder to demonstrate that, look, we’re here for you, we’re here to serve. If there’s no way we can help you, we’re not trying to interrupt and disrupt your operations. B, we need to remind ourselves that even though what’s our real role, even though we’re fearful, we still have to put others first. So that’s sort of the AHA, yeah.
11:58
Tab Norris
We’Ve had some good practice coming out of COVID because we just dealt with unreceptive. When you have a pandemic, a global.
12:06
Chris White
Pandemic, it’s like we can’t get a break. Like were finally coming out of the cove. Right, and now the recession looms.
12:15
Tom Stanfill
Exactly. Yeah. Who knows what’s really going to have the recession? The truth about our instincts and how our instincts sabotage our success, it’s so sabotaged because we do like I just had a meeting right before this podcast. There were six people on the call. It’s a real opportunity, and I’m nervous, I’m anxious, and I started to unpack it. Okay. Why am I anxious? Because I want to win and I need to win. Not only do I need to win, there’s even a deeper need, is I want to feel good about myself. I want to perform. I want to feel like I got off the call. What am I afraid of? I’m probably more afraid of getting off the call and saying, I blew that. I’m an idiot, I’m not good at this, or whatever. Those demons, those voices in my head that are negative, what is that all about?
13:07
Tom Stanfill
It is about me. I thought about what one of our guests, Kelly Talamo, I remember saying, when you’re going to speak, which is a speech, because there are so many people, it’s like it’s either performance or you’re communicating and helping people understand how you can help them solve their problem. I was like, when I recognize, okay, this is about me, I need to reset my compass to make it about them and not about me, I could feel my all of a sudden, I started calling. When the people got on the phone, I got on the Zoom meeting, I started joking with them, and it was myself. When I’m myself and I’m focused on them, guess what happens? They open up. You speak more clearly, you think more clearly, you respond, you listen. You do all those things that help you win. When fear kicks in, we revert to protection, and what we need to do is fight that instinct.
14:03
Tom Stanfill
Because the customer is afraid, too.
14:06
Chris White
Exactly. I’m inspired. Having listened to quite a few of your podcasts. I know all of them, Chris.
14:16
Tom Stanfill
Have you not listened to all of them?
14:22
Chris White
Okay. I know Tab likes things in threes.
14:27
Tab Norris
Give me a three, guy.
14:28
Chris White
You give me five.
14:29
Tab Norris
I’m lost. That’s why they call me the doctor.
14:33
Chris White
Chris, I think we need to frame this conversation into three, okay. Three things that people can walk away with, and I’m not sure what those three things are. I think we’re going to make them up.
14:46
Tom Stanfill
We got to make them up.
14:48
Chris White
I think I know what the first one is.
14:50
Tom Stanfill
Okay.
14:51
Chris White
You just inspired me, Tom, when you said that you had to look inwardly and ask yourself, what is it that I’m actually afraid of? I recently heard a term that I have fallen in love with called problem deconstruction.
15:08
Tom Stanfill
Okay?
15:09
Chris White
I’m going to modify that to fear deconstruction or anxiety deconstruction. Like, if we find ourselves feeling anxious or fearful, if we pause just for a moment, like you just did, and just deconstruct, what am I really afraid of here? What am I really concerned and what bad things really going to happen, I think we can very quickly realize that, okay, what? There’s no reason for me to be afraid of whatever it is I think I am, and we can learn to diffuse that. I think the first takeaway fear deconstruction, let’s take it apart and come to peace with what’s really going on.
15:54
Tom Stanfill
I love that. That’s good. Yeah. It’s typically something related to power or money or pleasure or something that is so important. I’ve found that if I can name it, like, what am I so afraid? Like what? I surprised myself when I asked myself that question, what am I really afraid of? I thought, actually it’s more about how I’m perceived. That’s ridiculous. Yeah, because it’s really the reason I knew that because it’s not really a large opportunity compared to a lot of our clients, even though it’s a client I love because it’s somebody that came that we worked with before and moved to a new industry, but we really want to work with them. But it’s not about the money. I know it’s not about the money, it’s about how I perceive myself. And then I go, well, that’s ridiculous. And then I tell myself the truth.
16:46
Tom Stanfill
What’s my real role? Do you really believe this? What’s the best way? Literally, my emotions started to align with the truth. That’s a really good point and I think it’s difficult for people, but the awareness comes from the feeling. I can tell when I’m either. Some people aren’t aware of their feelings, they can see how they’re acting, like they may be just their body language or just how they’re acting, their pace, speech or whatever they’re doing. They can highlight that. I think that’s a really good point. Determine the fear and tell yourself the truth. That’s number one. Beautiful. Let’s talk about fear on the customer side. Did I interrupt you? Do you have another?
17:31
Chris White
Let’s talk about fear on the customer side. As a customer, what do most decision makers fear?
17:50
Tab Norris
Most decision makers fear the most?
17:53
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
17:54
Chris White
When dealing with a provider, they’re afraid.
17:58
Tab Norris
They’Re going to make a bad decision and it’s going to make them look bad to whoever their boss is.
18:04
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, exactly.
18:06
Tab Norris
That’s what it’s like, oh gosh, I selected Aslan.
18:10
Chris White
Exactly.
18:10
Tab Norris
If they don’t do a really good job, I’m going to look bad. If they do great, I’m going to look good.
18:15
Chris White
First and foremost, my reputation is on the line here. Yeah, right.
18:18
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
18:19
Chris White
Oftentimes I think that’s number one.
18:22
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, think about it. I’ve said this before talking to sales, sellers, what’s at stake for you? Might be $10,000, could be $50,000 in commission. What’s at stake for them? It’s probably their job. It could be their job, it could.
18:40
Tab Norris
Be their next promotion, it could be their entire career path. It could be a huge pinned on.
18:45
Tom Stanfill
This, depending on how difficult it would type of engagement it is. But yeah, it’s real fear.
18:54
Chris White
How can we as sellers then, use that? The word that’s coming to mind is to our advantage, but I don’t want to make it about us. How can we use that to the collective advantage of the conversation or both parties involved?
19:16
Tom Stanfill
The way that I think about it is the customers want to feel safe right that’s ultimately how they make it. They ultimately make a decision when they feel safe. That’s why companies will use or go with the well known brands, because there’s a safety there. Well, they’ve done it. If you’re not the number one in your category, that may be an option for you. I always look at it, which we’re not. I always look at this, how can I reduce risk or eliminate risk? I even say that I said our goal is to eliminate risk from the process. This is the process that we found is the best process for you to adopt, to evaluate this type of solution and to solve this problem is to walk through these steps. As you go through that, we’re going to bear all the brisk so that you can make the most informed decision.
20:01
Tom Stanfill
And I found that works great. Not because I closed more, although it does lead to a higher close rate. They embrace the process because they see that it does eliminate risk and it’s the best process for them to follow. Because if I can orient my process around, what does the customer need to do to evaluate the solution versus what do I need to do to fill out the CRM and put what stage I’m in, which no one cares about, then that’s why deals get stuck, deal velocity slows down, and why deals stay in the pipeline for 344 days. So I think it’s about reducing risk. I don’t know how you do that. I say you poorly.
20:46
Chris White
Yeah, go ahead, Tab.
20:48
Tab Norris
Well, yeah, I was just going to say, I just had this call last week. I’m amazed that it makes me think most people don’t think like we’re talking because I’m amazed. I’m trying to close this deal and he’s reaching out. He’s like, Everything looks good. It was only so apologetic. Gosh, if we had to shift this here, and we had to move some of this into Q one of 2023, and we had to reevaluate because of this and this, is that even a possibility? And I’m like, of course it is. We’ll make this as risk free as you need it to be. If you need us to say, hey, we’re just going to commit to this and then we’ll decide on this later, I said, Whatever you need. He was blown away by that. So I’m, like, going, that’s crazy. Of course you do that.
21:35
Chris White
But.
21:37
Tab Norris
It does separate us. So I think that is a good.
21:40
Tom Stanfill
Point and I think the key to doing that, where people don’t do that is they’re afraid of wasting time and opportunities. They’re working so many opportunities that aren’t really qualified. If where you need to invest your time, you can get really excited about following a different process and getting more embedded versus like, I can’t do that with them, but I can.
22:01
Tab Norris
Do that with great point. That’s great. The reason I did it is because it’s very strategic opportunity. I know what’s on the back side of this, and I’m willing to risk that. It’s exactly right. Really good point.
22:12
Chris White
Well, and interesting, Tom, again, you use the word afraid of right. Afraid of spending too much time, afraid of Susan sticking with our three points.
22:24
Tom Stanfill
Why do you say that to him? Because he’s the doctor.
22:26
Chris White
Is that why he’s the doctor?
22:28
Tab Norris
Well, I’m I know this is going to sound very controversial.
22:32
Tom Stanfill
Okay.
22:33
Tab Norris
Maybe sometimes I could be a little more organized than you, Tom.
22:36
Tom Stanfill
That’s fair.
22:37
Tab Norris
Is that controversial? Okay, I don’t know. Maybe I’m just linear.
22:41
Chris White
I have such a hard time believing that.
22:45
Tab Norris
Okay, we tied. I just like three points.
22:48
Tom Stanfill
Okay. I will admit that I’m not as linear as most people.
22:54
Tab Norris
Yes.
22:54
Chris White
I think Tab and I think very much alike. I heard him say that in one of his podcasts. I said, I am so with you. Tab like, three key points. We’re going to break it down into three key points. The first one was fear. Fear. What else? The second one, were just talking about understanding fear from the side of the customer’s perspective, and were also talking about reputation risk. The second word that I’m going to share and by the way, I have to give credit where credit is due. I attended a conference about a month and a half, two months ago. A gentleman named Garen Hess is the CEO of Consensus, and he did a talk on buyer enablement. One of the terms that he shared with the group is emotional ROI. That we need to be we focus so much on driving ROI and demonstrating ROI.
23:58
Chris White
We need to keep in mind the emotional ROI that people that the individuals that we’re selling to will receive as a result of investing with our company, with our solution. Three of the things and these are our words, right? We talked about reputation, we talked about risk, and I’ll throw a third one in there. Reward. If we can think of what their emotional ROI is in terms of reputation, risk and reward, I think that positions us very well to have that conversation. Does that resonate, guys?
24:34
Tab Norris
I love that. That’s awesome. Yeah, because it taps into I like it’s a good tag for sometimes we’ll talk about the unsaid emotional need, but then also the unofficial, off the books reason people work with you. That’s the emotional role.
24:58
Tom Stanfill
It’s the informal decision drivers.
25:01
Tab Norris
It’s like, I just have a gut feeling that this just feels right. That’s emotional ROI.
25:08
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. What the best way to and I’m not adding another point, guys. Okay? I’m not adding another point. I’m not going to go away from our threes. Yeah, but what’s a very counterintuitive way to get people to see the emotional ROI is to take the trip and get them to explain to you what problem they have, because they believe if you understand their problem and you can validate their point of view and you can feed it back to them, and they go, exactly. They believe you can solve it, and they get more connected to you emotionally because you get them because people make emotionally think about it. People make emotional decisions. They don’t have the time to do all the research required to make a logical choice. They make emotional decisions about why they talk to you, why they share what they’re going to share, why they ultimately believe you.
26:07
Tom Stanfill
Ultimately, what they’re going to get out of it is emotional. Even if it’s financial. It leads to meeting an emotional need, respect. It’s all emotional. If we can connect on an emotional level, they start to see the value of what you offer in a completely different way, and they listen to you.
26:25
Tab Norris
Yeah, well, that fits beautifully under our emotional ROI category.
26:30
Tom Stanfill
Okay?
26:32
Tab Norris
It’s what we do about it. It’s a tactical approach to connecting to the Motional ROI.
26:40
Chris White
Tom, you used a term that we obviously know very well, take the trip. I’m wondering if it’s possible that some of your listeners or listeners to this very podcast may not fully understand.
26:52
Tom Stanfill
That’s not possible, Chris.
26:57
Tab Norris
No, this is their first one. It’s a really good point.
27:00
Tom Stanfill
Chris, if you’re listening to this podcast and you haven’t read the book or know what take the trip is, I want you to stop, hit the pause button right now and just leave. I think that’s no, yeah, that’s a great point. The concept that we talk a lot about it aslan and obviously it’s in the book, it’s about when we want to influence somebody, and I love to define influence this way. There’s two polarized points of view. You see the world, you’re on the North Pole, and you see the world, you’re up. The way you see the world is completely different than the way the other person sees the world, which they’re on the South Pole. You have two polarized points of view that, to me, captures what our role is as sellers and leaders, is to influence people to see the world in a different way.
27:45
Tom Stanfill
Okay, great. What our instincts tell us, especially when we’re fear kicks in and recession looming, how do I get better at articulating my point of view? How do I get better at making communicating my value prop? How do I get better at proving my value prop? Again, North Pole. But reality. Here’s the counterintuitive. The truth is, the more you validate and take the trip and leave your position and come down and see the world the way they see it and feed it back to them, and they know that you understand them and empathize with what’s important to them. Like, I remember one of the decision makers that I was working with years ago, what her informal driver was for the project, what her risk was. What her fear was is that she had a child with health needs. She was in the middle of a family crisis.
28:40
Tom Stanfill
Herman formal driver was, will you manage this project for me and make sure it goes well? Because I don’t have the emotional bandwidth or the time to do it because I have a crisis at home. That was her driver. So, first of all, I have to get her to tell me that she has to trust me, because I’ve left my position of telling her why Aslan is awesome and what we can do for her and the ROI blah, and see her world, feed it back to her. We’re connecting at a level where I go, I get it. I have four kids. I will not basically, I didn’t say these exact words, but the message was, I got the ball. You can trust me. I will manage this project. We’re going to get it done, blah, blah. I will be your partner. And that was why she chose Aslan.
29:26
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, but if I had never taken the trip, right. What would she have done? Had I not done that, she would have just picked the company that has the best reputation.
29:36
Chris White
Yeah. It’s interesting. Tom and I’ve shared this with quite a few of the folks that I’ve worked with, many of the workshops that I worked with, and I’ve narrowed it down to a very specific emotion.
29:54
Tom Stanfill
Okay.
29:56
Chris White
And that emotion is anger and frustration. When you’re dealing with a client or a prospect and you find yourself getting angry and or frustrated by something that they have said, chances are you haven’t taken the trip. That’s where you need to take rather than getting frustrated or rather than getting offensive, just get curious. Right. The instant we turn that into curiosity is the instant we begin to take the trip. Really? You think sales training doesn’t work? Right. I ask clients, what is the one thing that you dislike hearing your prospects say the most? Yeah. They’ll tell me, and I say, okay, so let’s say for argument’s sake, you’ve come and talked to me, and I tell what your platform can’t do? Blank.
30:56
Tom Stanfill
I don’t trust the cloud. Right.
30:59
Chris White
Exactly. I say, the moment you become curious instead of defensive or angry is the moment we begin to take the trip.
31:08
Tom Stanfill
So any man I love that example. One of the ways that I think about it is in that same situation is when that happens, there’s something that I don’t know.
31:19
Chris White
Exactly.
31:20
Tom Stanfill
If I took the trip and I found out, I’d go, there’s something I don’t know if I think somebody’s wrong or I have a negative emotion about it. There’s just something I don’t know. I love that. Those are the real drivers to why. You win or lose. Yeah. By the way, it’s harder to win when there’s more competition. Right. Because when the economy shrinks, there’s more people trying to win deals. The competition goes up, and you got to improve your game. What we typically do is we try it again. We go back to what’s comfortable, which is messaging, by the way. All of that’s important, how you position your solution, what you say about your solution, your ability to validate the payoff of your solution. Great presentations. All those things are important, and we got to up our game. If we don’t have that emotional connection, which eliminates the fear, which is what we’ve been talking about, we’re going to fail.
32:21
Tab Norris
Yeah. I love it. Now, I would not be nearly bold enough to state that this could be the third key, but I’m going to throw out something and see if it could if it’s in my brain, we’re.
32:38
Tom Stanfill
Going to kind of brainstorm, could this.
32:39
Tab Norris
Be the third we’re brainstorming? I’m not making any strong statements.
32:42
Tom Stanfill
I think our audience can tell we really prep hard for these.
32:47
Chris White
And unpredictable.
32:50
Tab Norris
Unbelievable.
32:52
Tom Stanfill
Wait, that was for exactly.
32:55
Tab Norris
I know, but I’m stuck. I’m kind of capturing the whole concept.
32:58
Tom Stanfill
I got it.
32:59
Tab Norris
Okay, but where does because when I think about you definitely have to kind of do your fear deconstruction. You got the emotional ROI. You got to understand that how that comes into play. That plays a big part in receptivity. Right? Creating receptivity. When I start thinking about when I’m thinking whether it’s selling in Covet or selling in a scary economy or anything like that, I have to tell myself that sometimes, and it’s probably a build value thing, that this is a real opportunity. You can kind of look at it either side of the coin. It’s hard because people are worried about budgets, and they have all the things we just talked about, this fear, they have emotional stuff, all that baggage. If you put that aside, it is a wonderful time. I mean, some of our great growth has happened in these kind of moments, because all of a sudden, people you start building value, and now is the time.
34:00
Tab Norris
Take the risk. Now is when you go get market share. Now you build value. If there was ever a time to invest in your people, to actually start growing some of these existing accounts, it’s now. I feel like there’s something around that get excited about whatever you sell, kind of really kind of connecting that value where we are. That’s not just in the sales training world, right? That’s in anybody that’s doing anything, any market. You got to figure out where is that real value in this kind of market. Thoughts?
34:37
Chris White
I have a thought, but I’m going to let Tom respond first.
34:40
Tom Stanfill
Okay. Thanks, Chris. It’s probably be good because then you’ll clean it up at the end. You’ll clean it, tighten it up.
34:49
Tab Norris
He’s got that bullet already. Kind of moving.
34:51
Tom Stanfill
I was just going to echo Tab by saying that’s exactly the way I’m trying to look at it. For our own company, anytime there’s challenges, it’s an opportunity to get better. Right. Like, for example, if it’s harder to win, then you have an opportunity to sharpen the saw, as they say. It’s cutting edge and get better at how you present and get better at what you do. Also, if you’re really good at what you do, it’s an opportunity to shine because people are scrutinizing more difficult. So I do, I agree with you. It’s an opportunity. I love that.
35:29
Chris White
Well, and I think a couple of things. First of all, I agree we need to get more focused on who our ideal clients are. We need to really ask ourselves, are we communicating the value of our solutions in a way that is meaningful to the prospects and customers we’re talking to, right? Are we still just drinking our own Koolaid kind of thing? The thing that really comes to mind for me is guys, I used to coach Little League basketball. I coached Little League, my kids in basketball, and even before I had kids, I used to coach basketball. I know that probably comes as a surprise to people who know I’m only five, nine and maybe a half.
36:22
Tom Stanfill
Exactly jumps through the roof.
36:26
Chris White
What I discovered is the teams that halfway through the year hadn’t won a game yet usually did better in the playoffs than the teams that were undefeated halfway through the year.
36:45
Tom Stanfill
Interesting.
36:46
Chris White
Why? They were hungry because if we’re four and an eight game season or five and o in ten game season, I take my foot off the gas as a coach.
36:59
Tab Norris
Yeah, I’m not hungry anymore.
37:01
Chris White
Just have fun, kids. All the other kids, they’re losing game and their coaches are working. Then you get into the playoffs, right?
37:11
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
37:12
Chris White
All the kids that have been working hard for 10, 12, 15 weeks, they beat the kids that have been slacking off. To me, I do think that when we are faced with more difficult times, tom, you used the term sharp and saw. I think it makes us work harder. And I agree it’s an opportunity. It’s an opportunity.
37:36
Tab Norris
It’s all your mindset.
37:38
Tom Stanfill
I’m going to propose a different third bullet Tab, although I think that was powerful okay. That we did, it’s an opportunity. I want to propose a very tactical third and then we’ll vote at the end and then decide. I want to say I want to challenge people that when economy gets tight, budgets get tight, and budgets aren’t real. Right. Even if they say you have a budget, to the people below that are driving the decision making process, they typically are evaluators that have a budget. A lot of times those budgets aren’t real, even though they may be working because they can be pulled at any time, or the budget doesn’t exist. So, like, hey, this sounds great, but I got to go sell up. I think it’s really critical when a session hits, you got to move upstream in the organization and talk to people who own the problem and really determine what happens.
38:30
Tom Stanfill
You can’t get comfortable working with people who are, like, out there evaluating who love what you do and love it, but they can’t get it approved. The problem is, if you come in at that level, although that’s sometimes required, it’s really difficult to move up because you’re kind of stuck or seen at the buyer level, if you will, or evaluate our level. I think it’s just and again, if you’ve got that relationship, work together to move up and partner. We’ve got to get to the people who ultimately determine what happens, and that’s a different skill set. It’s also you have to know what’s on their whiteboard. That’s a different level question. Those are different they care about different things, because ultimately, if you can make a business case at that level, they’ll create the funds.
39:14
Tab Norris
I think we’re saying the same thing.
39:17
Tom Stanfill
This your way of getting your bullet number?
39:19
Chris White
Exactly.
39:20
Tab Norris
I can make free work all day long. It’s my gift. No, it’s really you’re building the right value at the right level. You know what I’m saying? It’s like, you got to be tighter on your value, but you got to be talking to the right people. Value is fine, but if you’re not at the right level and you’re not talking to the people that care about it, forget it. It doesn’t matter.
39:40
Tom Stanfill
I agree, and I think it all.
39:42
Tab Norris
Fits into upping your game and handling the challenge because it’s going to take more work to your point.
39:48
Chris White
Yeah. By the way, Tom, you just inspired me to suggest that I think you guys should have a podcast dedicated to the word budget and understanding. What do people mean when they say budget and what do we think we mean when we say budget and or hear budget as sales professionals? That alone, I think, is a I love that podcast, but if I may, I have one final thought to share, and it might tie the two things that you guys have put together, and the inspiration actually comes from you, Tom.
40:34
Tom Stanfill
Oh, wow.
40:36
Chris White
You may not even remember this, so I think both of you guys know I run this little LinkedIn Live program called Tech Sales Advice, and Tom was a guest on Tech Sales Advice earlier this year. During that conversation, which was a brilliant it was a fantastic conversation, one of the highlights of the year for that program, by the way.
40:56
Tom Stanfill
Thank you.
40:57
Chris White
Tom talked about his book and unreceptive and making people a priority and dropping the rope and taking the trip and all the things that we talked about. At the very end, I asked Tom I don’t know if you remember this, Tom. I said, Tom, if I were to bump into you on the street and recognize, say, oh, my gosh, Tom, I just saw you on Tech sales advice. I just got my first job as a sales professional. Any advice for me? I don’t know if you remember what you said, Tom, but it was so impactful for me.
41:30
Tom Stanfill
What did I say? I don’t want to guess.
41:33
Chris White
You said be disciplined.
41:37
Tom Stanfill
Okay. What?
41:38
Chris White
You said be disciplined. What struck me is that in spite of all the things that we talk about that make the aslan other centered selling approach unique and different, and we get into the core, and it’s emotional, and it’s people at the end of the day, like what you said was, we need more. None of that matters if we’re not disciplined. Maybe this ties into what we’re saying, and maybe not, but I would just cast or put a candidate in.
42:20
Tab Norris
The entry for well, I think this is all beautiful. You’re right.
42:26
Tom Stanfill
I think we should let the audience vote tab.
42:28
Tab Norris
Yes, I do, too, because we have be disciplined. We have build value, basically, and we have moving making sure you’re communicating to the right level.
42:39
Tom Stanfill
And fear deconstructing fear.
42:42
Tab Norris
We’re not asking the audience about fear deconstruction or emotional ROI.
42:46
Tom Stanfill
I’m sorry.
42:47
Tab Norris
I just think we just make that statement.
42:48
Tom Stanfill
That’s good. What do you think?
42:50
Tab Norris
Are we good on that?
42:50
Tom Stanfill
I agree. I love your point, Chris, about and I don’t know exactly why I said that, but I do believe that now that I’m kind of revisiting that question, because if you don’t do the work, it doesn’t matter. We get caught up a lot, and how do we do it and what are we good at? People get stuck in this I’ve got fear. Or the best way to work through your fear is to make more calls, do more work. To me, if you think about your plan, that’s non negotiable. Work your plan, set your goals, work your plan, do your work, and then you just get better at it. But yet that is number one. Exactly. It’s just crazy to me that the opportunity for success, especially in a down economy, because there are so many people who don’t just show up. They don’t know what’s on the customer’s whiteboard.
43:48
Tom Stanfill
They don’t know their customers. They don’t work on their craft. They don’t do the training. They don’t make the calls. They don’t do the work. So the people that are willing to.
43:57
Tab Norris
Do it, they’re well, they get motivated. Yeah, I mean, to your point. They don’t really do the hard work to figure out how do we position ourselves when it’s down? I don’t do the hard work. I’m not disciplined to do that. I’m just going to be lazy and do it the way I’ve always done. By the way, I’m not going to go try to figure out how to craft a good positioning statement to talk to a higher level person because they could be not nice to me. I’m not going to do that.
44:21
Tom Stanfill
It’s hard to know what that is. I know that’s not what I think about.
44:25
Tab Norris
So, yeah, I think you’re right. If you’re not disciplined, forget all of it.
44:29
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Going back to connecting it all back to the first bullet point about fear, a lot of times we’re not disciplined. I think it’s two reasons. One, because we have fear. We have fear failure. Right. Or we haven’t really thought about what we want. Motivation is typically a wanting problem. We don’t know what we want. And so that’s where we start. By the way, if you don’t want to serve your customers and be in a role of sales, there’s nothing wrong with that. You need to figure out what you want. Or maybe being successful in sales leads you to what you ultimately want is part of the path. It’s either you don’t know what you want and what you’re doing isn’t connected to what you want or there’s some fear that’s keeping you, like writing a book or speaking or doing whatever it is. It’s like, yeah, if I do that, I’m going to fail.
45:16
Tom Stanfill
This back to something you taught me. I remember early on, I actually was afraid of feedback. I hid from feedback. I had fear related to it because I guess it was an identity thing. Like, if you see me doing something and you give me feedback, you’re going to tell me. Basically, I’m not very good at something and that hurt and that sounds so immature, but that was I remember you going, I love it. Give me feedback. Tell me how the people watching you would say, like, the rep, what I do wrong? I’m ready. And I was like, embrace.
45:48
Tab Norris
Where do I suck? Tell me.
45:52
Tom Stanfill
Versus I was always, like, trying to manage my image early in my career.
45:58
Tab Norris
If you don’t have an image, it’s so much easier to get feedback.
46:00
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, whatever. I don’t want to roleplay because you’re going to see that I’m not any good or I’m going to do it wrong. No, just, hey, we all got to get better. We got to get better. We need coaching as a gap. Chris, will you promise to come back?
46:16
Chris White
Of course. I’m delighted to be here. Any time.
46:19
Tab Norris
Guys, we can figure out the world’s problems. The three of us. Just throw us in a room together. I think we can figure it out.
46:25
Tom Stanfill
I love it. Love it. All right. You’re New York Times best seller, then you have to promise you’ll still talk to us. Although Amazon may be even more prestigious. Anyway, seriously, congrats on your success, my friend. I mean, you’re super talented. Love being associated with you. Love having you part of our team. Grateful for how you serve our customers and how you teach all of us to improve, how we sell and serve. The best of luck to you, my friend. Let us know whenever you want to be on the show. You always got an open door. Good to see you.
47:03
Chris White
Thank you very much.
47:07
Tom Stanfill
People that are listening to the show, please give us feedback. How we can improve. Share the show if you feel like it can help, but that’s one of the best ways for people to find out about us is to give us feedback. Give us comments. It’s also the best way for us to improve. Thanks for joining us for another episode of SALES with ASLAN.
