Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.
The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.
The following are notes from Ep. 152 – Are You a Trusted Partner to Your Customers?
In this episode, Tom and Tab get into the nitty gritty aspects of the “four levels of selling.” As sellers, we’re not just “in sales” – like musicians or athletes, there are degrees of success, experience, and expertise that elevate salespeople into another league.
They discuss what those levels are and what differentiates each one from the next, as well as the strategies, tactics, and philosophy that it takes to reach the highest level of selling: trusted partner.
Listen to the conversation here:
Or check out the full transcript:
00:03
Tom Stanfill
Welcome to just one more episode of SALES with ASLAN. Not a lot of episodes, not all the previous episodes, just one more episode of SALES with ASLAN. We don’t know what tomorrow holds to have another episode.
00:19
Tab Norris
I love that about you because it does kind of sound a little ominous. One more.
00:27
Tom Stanfill
Just one more. I may not make it tomorrow. This could be it. This could be the final, so pay attention. That sounds a little scary, Tab. I don’t know.
00:39
Tab Norris
Let’s make the most of it. Let’s win the day, Tom.
00:42
Tom Stanfill
Win the day. Make the most of it. But we love being in the studio. Tab, love seeing you, as always. You look fantastic today.
00:50
Tab Norris
You do too. I like your hair today.
00:52
Tom Stanfill
Well, I’m going out tonight. Tab. By the way, Tab, I never heard a new term, although some of our listeners probably know this term. I heard it from one of our young upwardly mobile decision makers I met with this week. He described somebody as “Smokeshow Ten.”
01:16
Tab Norris
“Smokeshow ten.” I like that.
01:18
Tom Stanfill
I had no idea what that is. One of our director of customer development Cluster Engagement had to explain it, what it meant. I’m going out tonight and I want to be smokeshow ten. I don’t think that’s possible to have and what that means. I think it means that you’re a ten.
01:39
Tab Norris
No, I think it is. I think it’s just a lot of good description around a ten. I’m going to a high school football game, so I don’t need to smoke anything.
01:50
Tom Stanfill
We might be more Tab “smoke House” Ten.
01:53
Tab Norris
Yeah, that’s it.
01:54
Tom Stanfill
I like barbecue. I smoke house five, baby, smokehouse five. So I’m dressed up. I’m going out tonight with my oldest son and his wife. So excited about that. Of course, my wife will be the primary focus.
02:06
Tab Norris
Right.
02:07
Tom Stanfill
So I’m a little dressed up today. But Tab, love our topic today. Excited about it. I think this is one of those overlooked aspects of selling. A lot of times we tend to focus on kind of more, who we are and the fundamentals of selling rather than the tactics, because I think who we are and the fundamentals really ultimately drive our success. The tactics and strategy are pretty easy, but it’s hard to go against the grain, to fight against some of our natural intuition to become a person of influence, as Covey said. Today I want to talk about and we probably covered this to some degree on our podcast before, but I want to talk about the different levels of selling, the four levels of selling. Most people think of selling like, I’m in sales, right? I’m like, I’m a salesperson. Actually, Tab, as selling is just like being an athlete or musician.
03:08
Tom Stanfill
They’re level you’re like Pee Wee League all the way up to a professional. If you say I’m an athlete, well, what does that mean? I’m a musician. What does that mean? Well, it means I play in my room by myself and for my family to listen, or I fill out concert halls and people pay me to be a musician. So there’s a completely different level. But we call ourselves musicians. This is also true for selling, Tab.
03:35
Tab Norris
Yeah, it is so true. I had a Pee Wee call me yesterday. He literally asked me a question. He said, do you have this? I said, I do not have that. This is all I got. He goes, well, the reason I ask is that we offer, and he starts listing all these things he offered. I said, did you hear me before? I just said, I don’t have that. He goes, I know. I just thought I’d tell you anyway. I’m, like, tell you anyway.
04:13
Tom Stanfill
Do you need this? No. Let me tell you some things you might need that you said no to. What did he ask if you had?
04:21
Tab Norris
What did he how many more employees he wanted on a certain card?
04:25
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Do you have X number of employees? You say, no.
04:31
Tab Norris
Every employee I have has this card. That’s what I said. I said every employee. We’re not adding new employees to this company. Well, I get it. He goes, well, because you are not going to use this. Let me just tell you about it. It was really funny.
04:45
Tom Stanfill
I think the reason people do that sometimes, it will probably impact us, hopefully, in the podcast today, I think people do this because they’re getting graded on that call.
04:53
Tab Norris
I could almost feel the grade make.
04:56
Tom Stanfill
A call, you got to say this, which really feeds into what we’re saying. That person would be what I call a billboard.
05:07
Tab Norris
Yes.
05:08
Tom Stanfill
The lowest level of selling is a billboard. The company tells me what to say and I say it. I don’t really know. I couldn’t defend it. I don’t know why I’m saying it. I mean, I kind of know, but I don’t really know. I remember my first job out of college. I was a loan officer, and they told me that rates don’t matter. It matters. Really, what’s more important are the services that we offer as a mortgage company.
05:39
Tab Norris
Yes.
05:40
Tom Stanfill
Someone says, hey, by the way, when I got in the business, the rates were, like, 13%. If you’re complaining about the mortgage rates, when I started, they were 13%. They did drop after that. I’ve got a 13% mortgage and somebody else rate, and somebody else has got a 12.5% rate, and so it’s a half a percent, which is maybe, I don’t know, just say $50,000 more expensive. I didn’t do the math over the life of the loan, but that doesn’t matter. What matters is the services that we offer and blah, blah, blah. They tell me that to say that, so I did. They push back and I go, well, you’re wrong. I don’t know why, but they told me you were wrong. I don’t know.
06:25
Tab Norris
That the person behind the curtain is really smart. Much smarter than you.
06:30
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, but I couldn’t defend. I didn’t really know why. It sounded easy. You tell me to say this, I’ll say it. Maybe that’ll work. But I didn’t really get it. So I was a billboard. Were you ever a billboard tab?
06:41
Tab Norris
Oh, gosh, totally. Billboard, baby. First job, I memorized all the boxes. Motorola days. You got this objection. Let’s buckle up because you’re about to hear a big boatload of stuff.
06:54
Tom Stanfill
Yes. I have four things they told me to say. I’m going to pick one of the four, my favorite, and then we’ll go from there.
07:02
Tab Norris
My problem is I told them all four.
07:06
Tom Stanfill
Here are some reasons why you might be wrong.
07:09
Tab Norris
I’m more of a talker than you, I guess.
07:15
Tom Stanfill
So that’s the lowest level. There’s another side of that which I think is the same level. Level one I’ll call it is the Relationship Manager. That’s the flip side of the coin. It’s like they don’t say anything, but they’re there if you need them. They’re more of a high level customer service rep. If you need me to get you something, hey, I’m just checking in, touching some base, making sure I’m here. If you need me, I’m here. I will get it for you. Not that we don’t need to communicate at times our role and who we are and how we serve accounts, but these are the people that probably are given some accounts, and they just kind of let people know what’s going on, and they deliver the billboard, and if anybody needs and they call. It’s either Billboard or Relationship manager, then we move to the next level.
08:04
Tom Stanfill
The next level is a sales, what I call a sales EP. You can even call them a sales professional. These are the people that really do understand, try to understand the needs of the people they serve. They only really can sell a product. Yeah, right. They don’t really know what’s happening at the business or the why, but they can uncover do you have a need for, like, the guy that called you about was it a credit card? Yeah, credit card. He can figure out, do you have a need for the credit card? He can fill that need by explaining to you the benefits. He really does want to know if you have the need.
08:36
Tab Norris
Right.
08:36
Tom Stanfill
They don’t really get what’s happening in the business or the why. They’re coming late in the process. They’re not early. The next level tab is, as the consultant. Now the consultant moves from talking about just a product, and they have a larger understanding of the business and what the business needs. They don’t just work at the end user level. The people that the technical buyer, they work more with the people that are driving the business and they can have a problem based discussion and they can share insights and perspective. That is definitely a high level moving up. That’s definitely the move from seller to kind of thinking more about how to help the business. But that’s not the highest level. The difference between a consultant and the highest level, which we call trusted partner is a trusted partner actually changes beliefs. They are people who walk into a room and the people they’re meeting with go, we shouldn’t do that.
09:37
Tom Stanfill
We believe we should go in this direction. A trusted partner has such trust and credibility and rapport and receptivity with the people they are talking to. They are able to change closely held the leads and get organizations, leaders, decision makers to move in a different direction. So those are the four levels. Tavin, I don’t know if I’ve ever asked you this, but with your experience in the market, with all the years that you spent coaching and training, what percentage would you say fall in the trusted partner category?
10:09
Tab Norris
God, that’s a really good question. It’s so industry driven because how it is with some customers. With some of them that’s really not true. There are some industries that have a lot of consultants and others have more sales reps. You’re right to go to that highest level. I want to say 10%, maybe 10%, maybe 20 would be the max. I’d say 10% to 20%. That’s what I think.
10:45
Tom Stanfill
I will say this. I think that’s probably pretty accurate. I think there’s probably a higher I would say that probably applies maybe 10% to 20% more to the consultant level. I don’t know how many actually can really change the direction of the decision making process, but I don’t know that I was just curious what you thought about that.
11:07
Tab Norris
Yeah, I sure don’t know. Let’s put it this way, it’s not a big number. No, that’s a slither. Think about it. All the years we’ve done this and you and I are going 10% and we may think that’s too much. Yeah, how’s that?
11:25
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. I tell you what, when you do meet people that are trusted partners, which really is just an evolution of what happens I remember when I started at Aslan, I was kind of more of a sales rep. We were new in selling sales training. We had a good program, we’d seen some traction, but we really didn’t know what were doing related to the businesses were serving and what was happening and learning and how VP’s of sales of large organizations, what their needs are, what was on their whiteboard. We didn’t really know I would personally sell and you probably were similar. I would sell a product, hey, we got this program. As I learned more and sometimes it didn’t feel very good because people would ask questions, right? As I grew in my role, I would then have a completely different approach, and I learned more about how we could serve businesses.
12:26
Tom Stanfill
I think I became hopefully with not all clients, right. Because being a trusted partner really is based on an invitation. They have to invite you in because it’s all about earning a seat at the table. It’s about earning a seat at the decision making table, and they’ve got to invite you in. And that doesn’t always happen. We definitely can be a consultant. We can control that. Being a trusted partner requires an invitation. I know I’ve been I remember the first time I felt like I really broke through. I hope Tom Karen’s listening to this message, but if he is, he’s making.
13:03
Tab Norris
Fun of us right now.
13:04
Tom Stanfill
I can tell you that he’s one of our early customer, early days. We go back literally 20 years ago. Tab we started working with Tom Karen, and I’ll never forget what he did. We’re working with APC Is, the company he worked for. He’s head of learning. They’ve done a program with this initiative, and it’s going well, and their people are growing, and they’re hitting their number, and they’re growing incremental revenue, but they realize that they need to improve their sellers ability to understand what’s on the C suite whiteboard like they need to learn more about the executive level. There was a company out there called Executive Conversation, and he calls me and says, were looking at this is back when you called people. Tab we’re looking at executive Conversations, and I want to see if you can provide the same thing. I said, let’s talk more.
14:07
Tom Stanfill
He goes, before we kind of dive into what you offer, will you join the call where Executive Conversations is going to present to us? Yeah, you join the call, and then you tell us what you think about whether you can do what they can do or we should go with them.
14:24
Tab Norris
Yeah.
14:25
Tom Stanfill
That was really the first time I felt like I was a trusted partner where I’d earned a seat at the table. And Candidly, here’s the outcome of that. I got off the phone, listen to the call, was a conference call. I said, you should work with them, not us. They have a better solution than we do for what you’re trying to accomplish. They literally had people because they were selling to CTOs and CFOs, and they would literally have people that were formerly CFOs and CTOs teach the course. And I said, that’s brilliant. That’s a good solution. Here’s the thing, and this is really kind of transitions me into what I want to talk about next, is the benefits. EP, EP. EP. EP. EP. EP. EP. EP. EP. EP. EP. EP. EP EP. EP EP. Are you a trusted partner working with Tom Kieran? We’re still working with APC, who was sold to Schneider Electric.
15:17
Tom Stanfill
We’re still working with Schneider Electric. That is really the benefits of getting to that level. It’s not about selling, it’s about serving.
15:28
Tab Norris
Yeah, totally. You just triggered something in my brain that when you talk about when you first felt like you became a trust partner, mine is really embarrassing. I mean, it’s funny. It’s because of the client, but it was the same kind of thing. Yeah, but what makes this funny is and I’m not going to tell you all the stories, but the fact that.
16:17
Tom Stanfill
This is the client podcast tab, it is for everyone.
16:21
Tab Norris
This is when I felt like I became a trusted partner because the exact same thing happened. I mean, the guy basically I was still kind of getting over, I’m really going to teach these people how to sell this better. It was kind of hard for me, but he goes, hey, Tam, here’s the bottom line. I’m talking to you. There are four companies. You’re one of four. I don’t know what to do. Can you help me? I just don’t know what to do. I’m lost. I feel like I can trust you. Can you just help me figure this whole thing out?
16:49
Tom Stanfill
Right.
16:49
Tab Norris
Same thing. It was like, all of a sudden, I felt like, okay, that’s a different feeling.
16:54
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. The whole nature of the conversation starts to shift from buyer, seller. We’re kind of protecting our side of the table. We’re kind of holding back information. We’re negotiating. You’re trying to sell your solution and differentiate you versus you work there. Yeah.
17:18
Tab Norris
It’s like, hey, I’m just trying to help you make the right decision.
17:20
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. They call you, what do you think about this? Because I know they’ll tell you there’s only really two reasons why people will invite you in. Right. There’s some skills that we need to develop to be EP EP EP EP EP EP Are you a trusted partner? Truth. Right. You know something about what should happen. Right.
17:39
Tab Norris
You have some knowledge, you really have.
17:42
Tom Stanfill
The expertise to help. Will you really tell me the truth, or are you just using this opportunity to gain advantage and earn a commission? Just to wrap all this set up about because I want to talk about the traits of a trusted partner, but the benefits of it are really I mean, there’s just so many benefits. I listed five tab. One, it’s more fulfilling when you move into that role and people you start having those kind of EP relationships longer selling.
18:15
Tab Norris
It’s so much fun. Like, I’m getting on a plane Tuesday to go be with one of my customers where I’m a trusted partner, and I can’t wait. We’re going to be kicking around ideas. We’re going to be working through things, and we may get some business from it. Other people get business. Who cares? It’s fulfilling. It’s awesome.
18:31
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, it’s fulfilling your scope. The size of your deal goes up, your win rate goes up. The loyalty goes up. People stick with you. Right now, when I say win rate goes up, it also may mean that you might lose something.
18:49
Tab Norris
Yeah, your wing overtime goes up. But you’re right, that doesn’t mean you.
18:53
Tom Stanfill
Win every deal because you get out, which is the last one, is you don’t waste time, you get out early. Like, if you really are trying to serve your customer and you’re talking to the right people and you got to see at the table, like when Tom Kieran invited me in and says, hey, let’s look at this company, that took me 30 minutes, I spent 30 minutes. And I go, I’m out. No, I didn’t do all the proposals and meetings and back and forth and follow ups and what did you think about? They say, well, we’re going to go with the other firm. I just said, what are you trying to do? Who are you talking to? I said, they’re better because trusted partners, which is one of the traits, really chooses their customer, which means they’re only working on deals or opportunities that they should win so many benefits, both tablets.
19:40
Tom Stanfill
Without further ado, let’s jump into what I’ve identified, which I know you’re part of this process because we’ve been working together and we learned from each other, but I’ve identified, pulled together from our vast experience, seven traits of trusted partner.
19:58
Tab Norris
We love a good list.
19:59
Tom Stanfill
Tom, we got a list.
20:01
Tab Norris
I love a list.
20:03
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, it’s a good list. Ultimately, we’re going to talk about the main takeaway, the main benefit. So number one tab. Here’s the number one trade characteristic of a trusted partner. It’s how they measure success.
20:19
Tab Norris
Okay?
20:19
Tom Stanfill
So think about it. Sales reps measure success based on commission, right? Another way to say it is pipeline or sales numbers, right? Now, that doesn’t mean that a trusted partner doesn’t know what they’ve sold or what their pipeline is or what number. That’s not how ultimately, at the end of the day, they measure success. That’s how they’re tracking their progress, because that is a good trusted partners define their success the same way the customer defines success.
20:49
Tab Norris
Yes.
20:50
Tom Stanfill
In other words, so when they are meeting with a customer, they’re thinking, what are you trying to do and how can I help you achieve that? If I help you achieve that, then I’m successful. Versus a sales rep says, okay, if I win this deal, I’m successful. Now, whether you get what you want, customer, I don’t know.
21:10
Tab Norris
All right?
21:11
Tom Stanfill
I’m defining my success based on what the customer defines. Candidly, I have to remind myself of that.
21:21
Tab Norris
Yeah, it can be tough in the middle of this I just was in this situation last week with a very large company, and I have to remind myself, play this for the long run, not the short run. Because I have such a great relationship with this person, I think I could probably squeeze an extra $100,000 out of them.
21:48
Tom Stanfill
Right.
21:49
Tab Norris
It’s not the right thing to do. I’m sitting here going and it was really powerful because I told him, I said, you can do this or you can do this, and I’m going to recommend the lesser of the two. And here’s why. Because here’s what’s going on. I don’t have to tell you all the exact details, but the bottom line is, based upon their growth strategy and what they were trying to do, it wasn’t worth the risk and the rewards. I said, we’re going to do this. We’re going to get you started for the next year, and after a year, you’re going to know exactly what the deal is. You lock in for the long play. Yeah. He said to me, he said, thank you. I said he said, Just thank you. Because it seems like you really are interested in us doing this the right way and having a long, EP relationships.
22:33
Tab Norris
I’m like, I am, but you’re right. But it’s lesser money for this year.
22:41
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, there is a time yeah, there’s a short term consequence. It’s like you can talk to a company who says, hey, do you need this? You’re like, I could probably pull that off, and I could potentially but I can’t really ultimately implement it very well, and I probably could talk you into it, or I may not need to quite tell you the truth about this, or I had a potential client were meeting with about three months ago, and their question was, can you deliver in Korea?
23:17
Tab Norris
Oh, yeah.
23:18
Tom Stanfill
The honest answer was, I’m not sure.
23:21
Tab Norris
Yes.
23:23
Tom Stanfill
And that’s what I said. I said, I’m not sure. It’s funny, right after that, I had a meeting with another prospect who said, we want everything delivered in Korea.
23:36
Tab Norris
The answer now is a resounding yes.
23:40
Tom Stanfill
They’re an La based bank, and they serve only the Korean population. They wanted to know, can I provide? The answer is, based on the number of workshops, the answer is no. I don’t know where that’s going to lead, but ultimately, long term, I am going to win more, have more loyalty. Now, maybe not today, but over time, selling is going to get really easy, and I’m going to be much more successful. By the way, I think we also have to keep this in mind. When your motive is to sell, people know it. It not only hurts you with short term wins and losses, it also just hurts you in the conversation itself. Your people are guarded. They don’t open up. They don’t share as much they don’t share the truth and they don’t tell you that. They just kind of go, okay, that sounds good.
24:39
Tab Norris
Well, motive is transparent as we talk about all the time. They know they get it all right?
24:45
Tom Stanfill
Tablet number one, how they define success. They remember, what is it that you’re trying to accomplish? How can we measure that? I know if I achieve that, you’re going to be happy and ultimately I’m going to win because people are going to talk about the impact of what I offer. Number two, rep, sales reps, share their present and present recommendations. They sent recommendations where trust in other words, they say, hey, these are things you could do, okay, I have things and you need to be able to consider all of these things. These are some recommendations. But you own the problem, right? I’m here.
25:33
Tab Norris
The customer owns a problem. If you need something, I got it here. This is what I could recommend, okay?
25:39
Tom Stanfill
This, I think, is probably the hardest, probably the biggest shift for people who want to become trusted partners. Trusted partners actually own the problem, right? They don’t say, look, they walk in when you invite them in. If they get the meeting or you get invited in, they start looking at, okay, what needs to happen, what is currently going on in your organization. I need to do my assessment. I need to figure out what’s going on. I need to meet with these people. They say, and for that to happen, here’s what needs to and they lead the customer and they own the problem. When the customer pushes back, they say things like, well, I’ve done this over and over again, and this is what we study and this is what we see. Now, you can do what you want to do, but this is how I approach it.
26:20
Tom Stanfill
Now, the customer may fight them on that, and I don’t mean fighting like it becomes a tug of war, but maybe push back and say, well, I don’t know you well enough to own the problem. There’s times where trusted partners aren’t able to do that, but they feel the weight of it and they say, this is my job. It’s just like an attorney should own the problem of winning the case. A doctor should own the problem of fixing my knee. We should own the problem of the solution. That is a completely different way of thinking about it, which means the trusted partner leads, whereas the rep is more of like, I got this stuff and I’ll explain it to you and I’ll educate you, but it’s more up to the customer to figure out.
27:03
Tab Norris
Yeah, good. Yeah. I had a call this week from a customer from I didn’t even told you this ten years ago, customer ten years ago that obviously we must have been a trusted partner because the call was now he’s CEO of a different company. He said, I just had to reach out to you. I’m struggling. I’m not struggling. I’m growing. I’m crazy. I’ve got this and I’ve got a house and things going on and I need help and there’s a lot of moving parts. What I did is I started thinking back about all we used to work with a lot of different training companies, a whole bunch. I thought, well, who would help me with this problem and who did I really like working with? He said, you were the first of the list. I called you and I thought that’s what you want, because and he starts telling me what he’s got going on.
28:00
Tab Norris
It’s like, I’m not just trying to sell him a training program. It’s like, oh, so you’re going to do this, you’re going to grow here. Tell me about your instructor. Because the whole idea is we’re in this thing together. It’s not like, hey, just tell me what you need or we’ll just plug in a little program here.
28:18
Tom Stanfill
You move from being outside of what’s trying to happen, just say I’m here. I don’t really know much about what you’re trying to do, but I do this and if you need this thing. I had that kind of situation with on the other side of this is where I’m the customer and were having trouble with our pool. We bought a house with a pool. I never had a pool before. I didn’t know what was going on. We had a leak. We had problems with the concrete around the pool, the decking. I mean, there was just so many things going on. We needed to replace things. We didn’t have a clue what we’re doing. We bring people in who did part of it, like somebody to fix the leak or somebody bottom of the pool or whatever. I didn’t know what was going. Finally we had this guy named Fabio.
29:06
Tab Norris
Fabio.
29:07
Tom Stanfill
Fabio.
29:08
Tab Norris
His long hair.
29:09
Tom Stanfill
For some reason when I heard Fabio was coming over, just look at our pool. For some reason, I was home that day.
29:16
Tab Norris
Honey, I’m going to say I’m working from home today.
29:19
Tom Stanfill
Fabio is coming over. I met with probably at that .6 or seven people about her pool and was super frustrated because I was trying to drive how to fix my pool. All I really want is a pool that works and I need to replace the decking and replace the tile. Because if the tile is falling off and the decking is getting old and I got a leak and I don’t know how to do it, I don’t know if I’m supposed to raise or lower the pool because the decking was all kind. I didn’t know what to do. I just needed a pool. I don’t care about anything. I just need a pool, right? But I was leading. I was this GC. I was a general contractor trying to. Fire people. Nobody really was like, I don’t know, I just do this. Fabio comes in, it’s like the name kills me.
30:01
Tom Stanfill
Fabio comes in, he walks around my pool, he looks at it and he basically starts saying, you need what you need to do, you can’t do that, you got to do this, you can’t do that, you need to do this, you can do this, you do this, don’t do that, do this. You need to hire this guy. He’ll do that. He basically explained the five things that I needed to do, how I needed to do it, and the solution to my problem. In literally five minutes, I said, you’re hired. Now here’s what he says. I don’t do all that right, I just do that. And I’m like, well, awesome. Basically, he knew for him to do his part of the work, he had to explain how all of this works. Because he had knowledge of everything that was required to get my pool up and running, he sold me his service and I ultimately got what I want.
30:50
Tom Stanfill
He was more than just, I sell this thing. I don’t really know about pools, right? That is a beautiful example of somebody who owns the problem. Of course, like you said, if I ever have anything related to a pool, which, by the way, I sold my house, I don’t need a pool problem anymore.
31:05
Tab Norris
But you may have another pool later.
31:06
Tom Stanfill
But I’ll always tell people about Fabio. Yeah, the other lesson take away from that story, Tab, is have a cool name like Fabio, you always will remember it.
31:16
Tab Norris
That is true. Like Tom. Who’s going to ever forget Tom? Ever. Never, ever.
31:20
Tom Stanfill
Well, is that why your name is Tab?
31:23
Tab Norris
Yeah, because I’m really Tom tab, is.
31:26
Tom Stanfill
This a good time for us to mention our latest sponsor?
31:31
Tab Norris
Yes, I can’t remember. I always forget. Our sponsors hate us. All right, let’s keep going. We got two to go, baby. Sponsor will cover later.
31:44
Tom Stanfill
I always think the best part of the Conan O’Brien podcast is when he has the sponsors at the beginning. Ours is show sponsored by allstate, by the way, if you want to ensure your sales, you’ll be in good hands. Okay, we’re only on two, right?
32:04
Tab Norris
We’re on three. Yes.
32:06
Tom Stanfill
This is part of owning the problem, is that here’s what a rep does. Rep knows their portfolio, products. They memorize and understand the features, the benefits of the problem. Trusted partners know the customers business. Yes, right. That’s redundant, but I think it’s about where they focus. They really understand the customer’s business. Here’s the other part of it, and I think this is probably the bigger point. They also understand all of the customers options. For example, I remember I was looking at insurance. It was time to up my insurance. I don’t know if it’s long term care. I don’t remember what it was, but I remember thinking, there’s hundreds of insurance companies and there’s lots of options. I think it was life insurance and there’s whole life term. There’s all kinds of ways that people talk about insurance. I wanted to have the conversation about what are all of my options?
33:00
Tom Stanfill
You represent one option, right? I want to know if you’ll explain the world to me, I’ll probably just choose your option, but if you don’t explain all my options, I have to figure it out. You aren’t a trusted partner, you’re just selling your thing. And this person couldn’t explain it. It just kept saying, well, you don’t really need that, you just need this. I’m like, well, what about all these options? Therefore I struggled and I didn’t work with that person. Yeah, I found somebody that could explain the world to me. Here there are four different kinds of options. Here’s why people choose it. Here’s why this is good, this is why this is bad. These are the pros and cons of all your options. I think that’s a differentiator of trusted partners. They don’t just know their stuff. They know all of the options the customer has and they know the customer’s business.
33:51
Tab Norris
Yeah, it’s a little bit like Fabio. They are kind of connected.
33:54
Tom Stanfill
That’s good, Fabio. Exactly. All right, number four, this is a hard one. This is kind of connected to number three, but it’s very difficult and very counterintuitive. Sales reps start with I offer, or you may want to consider, or we offer, or Our number one product is, or let’s look at this product. Or if you look at this slide, you’ll see that we can do seven things. Trusted partners begin the sentence with because you in other words. They can draw the audience in either whether they’re prospecting or they’re unpacking a critical point in a presentation or they’re communicating any kind of recommendation. They can begin the sentence with. Well. Because you are doing this because you’re expanding. Because you’re this type of business. Because you’re in this role. Because you told me this. They connect everything they say to the because you now they don’t have to start using those two words.
35:05
Tom Stanfill
EP, EP, EP. Are you a trusted partner?
35:09
Tab Norris
Right? If you can always say that, that’s what a trusted partner does because this is what you’re trying to do. Yeah, it is, but it means you’re at that right level if you’re doing that well, also.
35:25
Tom Stanfill
It means everything you’re going to say is relevant. I’ll say to apply this personally, this was the hardest thing to do with my kids, right. Because there’s so many things we intuitively know that they should be doing. My youngest son, I remember, was mowing the yard, right? He kind of did a crappy job. Okay. My first reaction is, well, you should mow the yard because I told you’re supposed to move the yard, and I’m paying for everything, and you’re getting an allowance. All the reasons why you want your kids to do a good job, do their homework, etc. How do I start that sentence with because you when I’m going to talk to them about how you mow the yard. That’s a challenge when we’re meeting with people on a personal level. If we stop and by the way, I don’t know about you, but this is where I do most of my prep when I’m meeting with a customer, especially when I’m making a presentation.
36:26
Tab Norris
Is around your because you.
36:29
Tom Stanfill
That is where all my prep is. When I look at what I’m going to say, whether it’s a flip chart, it’s just a discovery meeting where I’m taking notes, I’m going to ask questions. It’s the ability to connect everything that I’m saying to them. Why am I asking you this? Or the reason you may want to consider is because that is where my prep is. Because you work with so many different kinds of people and so many different kinds of roles. Or because you just may not know or just hard to keep it straight. Because we default to our stuff like we know our stuff.
37:08
Tab Norris
Right?
37:09
Tom Stanfill
That’s hard for me.
37:11
Tab Norris
I’ll tell you, that’s not just in sales. I agree it’s the big challenge, but it’s in training. I just spoke at a mentorship group this morning. Guess what? The whole time I’ve spent all my time working on the because you. Because if I can’t say because you, I lose my passion to inspire my audience. If I can’t say because you. As I’m training, I’m just yapping away at some concepts. Same thing with sales. If I can’t say because you, I cannot be passionate about really helping them reach their ultimate goal. And you’re right, it is not. I learned that from you, Tom. Of course I say that on the podcast all the time, but you’ve always been really good about that whole bridge slide. When we’re doing presentations, we’ve got to spend the majority of your time on figuring out that. And that’s the whole because you.
38:01
Tom Stanfill
That is the hardest part for me, honestly, tab now, doing what? We’ve been in our business for so long, and when the customer starts telling me their story, it’s like, I’ve heard that 100 times. Can’t we just skip to the thing? I don’t want to hear about your pool. Yeah, right. Because I’ve seen hundreds, thousands of pools. I know what’s going on. Let me just tell you what to do and move on. And people don’t respond to that. The longer you’ve been in your role, the harder it is to back up and start telling their story, hearing their story, telling their story, connecting it to them, taking the time. It’s funny, though. The longer I do it, the harder it is for me. We have to constantly remind ourselves of how do we connect the dots? And some things are obvious, right? Some things are obvious, but that’s a big test for you to see if you’re prepared for whatever meeting that you’re about to walk into again with whoever you’re about to talk to my wife about.
39:09
Tom Stanfill
I mean, I had this conversation yesterday with my wife, and we’re talking about budget, right? I have this desire to keep our budget to a certain level because of things that we’re trying to do as a couple, but she may not be tapped into that. That may not be clear to her. I need to be able to start the conversation of. Hey. Because you or and if I don’t know that. I need to say I want to know because you I want to know what maybe this isn’t maybe I’m leading in this direction. You’re wanting to lead in this direction. And I’m wrong. The gravitational pull to our agenda is so strong. We’ve got to stop. And if we can fill that in. It’s huge. All right, we’ve got to move it on tab.
39:52
Tab Norris
Two more, right?
39:54
Tom Stanfill
No, we’ve got three more.
39:56
Tab Norris
Three more.
39:57
Tom Stanfill
We’ve got three more tab. I know you’re excited. I know you’re excited.
40:01
Tab Norris
Yes.
40:04
Tom Stanfill
I think this may be a little redundant, but I think it’s worth saying reps intend on putting the customers needs first. Anytime I ask a rep, do you think you should put the customers needs first? Is the customer priority? I never hear somebody say no, I really don’t. But here’s the difference. Trusted partners actually put the customer’s needs first. Here’s what happens. There’s a fork in the road between what you want to happen and where you believe the customer should go. I mean, should is the key word, not where they want to go, because where they want to go may not be where they should go, but where you want this conversation to go. Where they need to go is if there’s a fork road, it’s going to cost you money. That’s when if you’re a trusted partner, is when you say, listen, I think you’re better off.
41:02
Tom Stanfill
Like, I just got an email before this podcast from somebody who says, look, I think your solution is too expensive for where we are right now. There’s just a question I need to ask. Is that true?
41:14
Tab Norris
Right?
41:15
Tom Stanfill
Is that true? If it’s really true, based on I know what’s on their whiteboard, what they’re trying to accomplish, what their resources are, what are their options, if that’s really true, I should say that’s exactly what you should do right now. I should help them figure that out. If that’s not true, I need to tell them and communicate why.
41:36
Tab Norris
Totally.
41:37
Tom Stanfill
Is that hard for you?
41:39
Tab Norris
Oh, yeah, totally. Well, I mean, that’s the story I told from the number one. I mean, it’s the same thing. I don’t like leaving money on the table and sometimes that’s what you have to do. I mean, it’s hard. Yeah.
41:58
Tom Stanfill
I’ve found the older I’ve gotten, the easier that is. I think it’s because I so firmly believe that it’s not going to work out anyway. I had a company talk to us and they wanted kind of similar to what Kiernan was talking about or needed years ago with executive conversation. They wanted business acumen training.
42:27
Tab Norris
Oh, yeah.
42:28
Tom Stanfill
They needed sales training. Their primary need at the moment was business acumen training. I’m like we developed that before and it’s been kind of an ad hoc custom program for a client who was 2% of everything were doing. We kind of made sense for us to do the 2% and develop something. That was years ago and it’s not really what we do. I had to say, do I really want to say yes to this or do we want to say no?
42:53
Tab Norris
You’ve always been better at that than me anyway. I just want every deal. It’s just so hard for me. I’m annex guy, tom member annex guy. I struggle with that.
43:05
Tom Stanfill
So let’s move on.
43:06
Tab Norris
Let’s move to the next one. You’re ripping open a scab here. Now, I’m kidding. I do I have to be very conscious of that one.
43:14
Tom Stanfill
Well, this is all these are kind of connected.
43:17
Tab Norris
Yeah.
43:17
Tom Stanfill
They are. The number six trusted partners choose who they’re going to serve. So this is kind of getting connected. They choose their customers and they choose their prospects, who they’re going to serve, where reps pursue prospects and customers based on their interest level. They’re like, hey, are you interested? Will you go out with me? I don’t care who you are. Will you go out with me? I’m looking for a date. Will you go out with me? Versus trusted partners are like they kind of sit back and they’re like, I’ve got very limited time. I’m very good at what I do and I don’t want to waste time on people that I can’t help. I’m a knee surgeon. I’m really good. I’m one of the best knee surgeons in the world. And you’ve got a liver problem. I don’t need to work with you next.
44:11
Tab Norris
Right.
44:12
Tom Stanfill
So that they choose their prospects. I remember, and what’s funny is maybe this is why I have such conviction around this, or it’s easier for me to do. It is. I’ve just seen what happens when it works. Like when I remember meeting with a big company and they were very early in their stages of trying to figure out what to do, and they put together this process for choosing a partner, a solution. I remember early on in the process going, well, then I’m out.
44:47
Tab Norris
Yeah.
44:49
Tom Stanfill
If that’s it, I don’t want to participate. This is what they said. They said, well, we’re going to do an RFP. Basically the person was doing their role. They just created this department and said, we’re looking for a partner and we’re going to do an RFP. And I said, okay, that makes sense. I think RFP is a good way to look at all your options. She said, kind of filter it down to the final three or four that fit. That makes sense. I can help you do that. I said, So then what’s the next step? She said, that’s it.
45:20
Tab Norris
All right. And we’re done.
45:21
Tom Stanfill
This may be worth the podcast right here. That’s it? And I said, that’s it. You’re going to make your decision based on the RFP. And I go, well, I’m out. You could see the person just completely shift from I’m assessing you as a vendor to why won’t you work with me?
45:43
Tab Norris
Yeah. All of a EP. Are you a trusted partner?
45:46
Tom Stanfill
What’s wrong with me? Why aren’t you working with me? It’s like it completely changed the dynamics of the relationship. I said, Because I don’t think of my 20 plus years of doing this and doing this hundreds of times, I believe that you won’t pick the right company if you don’t meet your partners. I said, 50% of the success of this part program is based on the people that you work with. If you got a process design that excludes you from lead, you’re going to basically pick somebody based on the words they write. You can write anything if you pick the top ten firms in this industry. They all have the same stories, they all say the same things, they’ve all been down this road and they’re going to say, and you’re going to pick based on the prettiest paper and the prettiest story. It has no really bearing in the results.
46:39
Tom Stanfill
I said, here’s the process that we found is most accept, blah, blah, blah. I said, if you want to do that, I’m in. If you don’t want to do that, then I can recommend some other people for you to talk to. And she’s like, no, let’s do that. Completely changed and dynamic. From that point forward, I was able and I didn’t do that because I’m arrogant. I didn’t do that because I’m smarter. I didn’t do that for any other reason. The fact that it’s just I didn’t want to do I didn’t want to go through the process. I knew it wasn’t really going to work. But it does completely change the dynamic.
47:11
Tab Norris
Yeah, I think that’s a great example.
47:15
Tom Stanfill
All right, Tab, we’ll close out with number seven, the last one. This is very tactical, but very practical. Tab, as tactical reps, can try to control, convince, or react to the customer.
47:34
Tab Norris
Okay.
47:35
Tom Stanfill
Trusted partners eliminate pressure and collaborate.
47:40
Tab Norris
Okay. They eliminate pressure and collaborate. Yes. That’s good. Can you give me an example of that? Like, what was that look like?
47:50
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, so when a trusted partner and this really does apply, I think, to us at home or any relationship where you’re a leader or and I always try to think of it this way. I look at truth is on the table, almost like food, like a nice meal. My role is to get people to see the truth. I think trusted partners try to do everything they can to keep out of the way or keep any barriers from people seeing the truth. They don’t try to force people to eat it. They don’t try to convince them to eat it necessarily, but they like to collaborate with them to help them say, look, there’s the truth. Here’s what I want to share with you. It’s up to you to determine what you want. I can’t control you. Control is just an illusion. They don’t try to which we always talk about pull the rope and try the tug of war and try, you got to do this.
48:43
Tom Stanfill
They dropped the rope and they were just very free with their recommendation. This is what we found that works. This is what I believe the truth to be. Here is the best practices that we’ve seen her work. I want to explain that to you and then it’s up to you to determine what’s right for you. I will share my recommendation, but I’m not going to try to control you and try to force you or try to manipulate you, which just makes them push back and become less interested in the truth. They more focus on the pressure then bringing them up. It’s like if I talk to my daughter about who she’s dating, I think whoever you want.
49:22
Tab Norris
Yeah. Because now you’ve given her the freedom to choose and she’s going to be more respectful.
49:27
Tom Stanfill
Let’s talk about what you want. What do you want? Do you want to be happy? This going to make you let’s talk about that.
49:33
Tab Norris
Yeah, that’s a great job. Of course all this stuff just pops in my brain because you and I obviously continue to carry a bag. We like to keep ourselves sharp and selling and doing the things that we do. Having this conversation with this senior VP, same kind of thing is happening. And it was just freeing. It’s just someone okay. Because they have this European group and they have this American group. I’m just like, you’re going to spend X amount to fly a couple of folks over to Europe a couple of times. He goes, that is an option, right? The other option is you do it virtually and you save yourself a whole lot of money. I said, here’s the question. You told me that they don’t feel loved sometimes. So you got to make the call. It’s your choice. If you feel like sending somebody from the US over there to pour into them is worth it, then do it.
50:32
Tab Norris
If not, there’s no way I do that. I just do it virtually. It was just give him the freedom to choose. He’s like, we got to love those folks. Let’s just send it to your point. It felt like a collaboration. It wasn’t me trying to force some additional work upon him. It was like, let’s just figure this thing out together. You got lots of choices.
50:55
Tom Stanfill
You got a lots of choices. I had this a similar conversation about implementation you just sparked that reminded me of it. I was talking about different options for training, and I said, this is what we need to know. If we’re going to make recommendations and be a partner, we need to know this. I said, for change to occur, there are three things. There’s the head, the heart, and the hands.
51:24
Tab Norris
Yeah.
51:24
Tom Stanfill
Right. What do I need to know and what do I need to learn to do? Which is the skills, right? There’s the heart, the passion, the desire to do it. Right. Of those three things, you got to start with the heart. We got to get people to embrace the need to change. That’s really difficult. Now, here’s what I don’t know, because I’m early in the conversation. You may just need to bridge the knowledge gap. Right. And that drives one training strategy. I said, or you may need to write what we’ve seen, blah, blah. You just put all that on the table and you say, hey, you may need to do a digital solution. This is where I don’t want to say pick. What I want to say at the early stage is, I want to say, I don’t know what’s right for you. Now, if I say, well, we got to change their heart, and we’ve got to get them to embrace it, and we’ve got to develop skills, I still can drop the rope by saying, we don’t have to do it right.
52:30
Tom Stanfill
Here’s what you need to do. Here’s what we’ve learned about the truth related to that. I’m going to stand by you, and we can look at that, but I’m not going to try to pull you to me. I’m just going to point to the truth. The more that I do that, which is a fine line, to be able to talk about recommendations without trying to get them to choose you.
52:49
Tab Norris
Yeah.
52:49
Tom Stanfill
The way that I try to drop the rope in doing that is always communicate. I may not be the only option for that. Right. There are other options.
52:58
Tab Norris
I think that’s really what you do. I think early in my career, I was worried about that. The longer I do this, I don’t worry about it anymore. I think I put a lot, way too much pressure on myself.
53:10
Tom Stanfill
Right.
53:11
Tab Norris
Like, I’m not tricking anybody. I think I used to think I suited up and I went to battle when I went and sold people. That’s not what this is about. It’s like, my gosh, if they’re going to make a bad decision, I’m going to be like, do whatever you want to do. I just don’t want you to make a mistake. I’ve just seen this happen. I’m just cautioning you, don’t use me. I don’t care if you use me. Just make sure you do this.
53:34
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, do that. Well, and I know people, the message you’re sending is you do want them to use you, but you’re okay if you’re opening the door for them to use somebody else. Because we do want obviously we want I know what you mean.
53:51
Tab Norris
I said you don’t have to use me.
53:53
Tom Stanfill
Don’t have to use yeah, I didn’t.
53:55
Tab Norris
Say don’t, I said you don’t have to use me, you just need to do this. I didn’t say, please don’t use us.
54:02
Tom Stanfill
I thought you said, I don’t care if they use me.
54:05
Tab Norris
Well, that’s my point, is whether you use me or somebody else, just do it.
54:13
Tom Stanfill
Follow this. We don’t have to be the one that helps you do it. Right. This is the key to being successful. The more we’re pointing them to the truth and what needs to happen, the more they’re drawn to us being the provider.
54:26
Tab Norris
Right.
54:26
Tom Stanfill
Now, again, if we’re choosing them, this is where the flip side, if we’re choosing them, we believe we’re the best provider. We believe that we could be the best provider. But you want to create that. Bottom line is you want to eliminate pressure.
54:41
Tab Norris
Yeah.
54:42
Tom Stanfill
You just want to eliminate pressure from the conversation and make sure they’re aware that they have all the options and you’re going to walk with them. At any point in time where it turns out that it’s not a good fit, you’re going to make them comfortable to tell you that. Because here’s the key. If the truth, you can respond to the truth. If you don’t know the truth, then you can’t deal with what they’re telling you. If they have some false beliefs or biases that need to be unpacked and you drop the rope, you create an opportunity for them to tell you that and then you can address it.
55:16
Tab Norris
Yeah. Would you agree that I think I hear what you’re saying. Pressure messes everything up. If there’s pressure, you’re putting yourself more at risk by just quote saying the right thing. Right. I mean, you’re just like do not put pressure. I mean, that’s just going to instantly cause some problems.
55:44
Tom Stanfill
I always eliminate pressure. Even if there’s nothing been communicated. I’m constantly saying, hey, look, because my role is I win if they know I make money if they choose me.
55:57
Tab Norris
Yeah.
55:57
Tom Stanfill
Regardless we don’t have to even say that. Regardless of my mindset or my values. My card says this and I’m recommending something or I represent a solution, they know I get compensated on them choosing me. If I’m talking to a restaurant owner, and they’re talking to me about their restaurant or a person talking about a movie they’re in, an actor, or somebody’s talking about their book. I believe they want me to buy it, and I believe they’re probably even when I’m talking to the concierge at the hotel, I believe that they’ve got relationships with friends, and they’ve got this thing going on. They always point me to that steakhouse, whether I want to go to that steakhouse or not. I feel like everybody has an agenda, and so I feel the same people look at me the same way. I want to start off by saying, I firmly believe that these are the options that you have.
56:54
Tom Stanfill
My goal is to help you figure out which one is right for you. It may be me. It may not be me. If they say, well, why are you like that? I’d say, because ultimately, the chances of you choosing the right solution, which I hope is me, will be greater if I create a better experience for you, for us to work together to figure that out, I’m going to figure out whether it’s a good fit, and you’re going to figure out a good fit, and either one of us want to. It’s kind of like the interview situation. You don’t want a job, you don’t want a job you’re not going to like. If I’m hiring somebody, I don’t want to hire somebody that’s going to be miserable. So let’s not sell each other. Like. Let’s work together to figure out so it’s just kind of a total philosophical shift that opens up dialogue.
57:34
Tom Stanfill
Makes people much more receptive. And ultimately. People are going to embrace your recommendation more readily. Which. Again. The goal is I just want people to recognize or look at and consider the truth. And nine times out of ten. If they do that. But you’re going to be more successful. All right, buddy, let’s wrap it up. Yeah. Hopefully you got some place to go.
57:58
Tab Norris
No, it felt like you were just teeing it up to bring it all together and make us all let’s wrap it up.
58:07
Tom Stanfill
I got to play golf. Are you playing golf today?
58:09
Tab Norris
No. I wish.
58:10
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
58:12
Tab Norris
I don’t play golf anymore. We both gave up on golf.
58:14
Tom Stanfill
No, you shouldn’t give up on golf. I should give up on golf. Never. Yeah. Hopefully this was a helpful episode. Give us feedback, comments if you thought the show was helpful, please let us know. Tell us what’s going on so we can get better at what we do. We can serve you better, and we know what to talk about on SALES with ASLAN.
