Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.
The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.
The following are notes from Ep. 141 – Mental Fitness with Bobbi Kahler
In this episode, Bobbi Kahler joins Tom and Tab to discuss mental fitness and its importance for all of us, especially those of us in the world of sales. Mental fitness is our ability to respond to life’s challenges, stressors, and opportunities with a positive mindset.
Why does this matter? When we respond with a positive mental mindset, we are more resilient, more creative, we negotiate better, we’re more productive, and we take clear headed action.
Listen to the conversation here:
Or check out the full transcript below.
Resources:
- Check out Bobbi Kalhler’s website for more information
- Or tune into her podcast, The UnYielded Show
Transcript:
00:13
Tom Stanfill
Welcome to another episode of SALES with ASLAN. I’m your host, Tom Stanfill. I’m here finally with my co-host, Dr. Tab Norris, the Dr. Sales training, Tab. We miss you last week. It wasn’t a,
00:28
Tab Norris
It really, it pains me and you know that it hurt, it, hurt it a real deep level, but I’ve worked through it. I had a little counseling. I’m going to be okay.
00:40
Tom Stanfill
Well, you had a grave, excuse, you were driving to west point to see your second, not your first, your second son graduate from west one. How many fathers have two children who graduate from west point? I mean, we, you need to do you need to, we need to do a parenting podcast tab, not a sales pipeline.
01:02
Tab Norris
Well, I have to have my wife do that one, but that’s okay. You know, it’s okay.
01:08
Tom Stanfill
Oh.
01:09
Tab Norris
Yeah. Big fan now. It’s great. What did I had very little to do with it? I’ve just very great boys. It was an amazing experience.
01:17
Tom Stanfill
They’re men.
01:17
Tab Norris
They are. That is true. Yeah. True. That.
01:20
Tom Stanfill
It hurt both of us and we wouldn’t even know it.
01:26
Tab Norris
I know I was going to head the sword in that picture? Yeah. No, it was an amazing, it’s just makes me just, it’s just, it’s just, it wasn’t, you were there. I mean, it was amazing.
01:40
Tom Stanfill
Just shout out to our military. These men and women give their lives for our country. They give four plus what is it? Five to eight years.
01:50
Tab Norris
Well, they do five at, well, this is coming out of west point. They do three reserves,
01:56
Tom Stanfill
The middle at 13 minimum, 13 years minimum to keep us safe and to protect our country and keep us free. I mean, it’s just in general Milley spoke. It was just amazing. I just love our military. Because of you, I’ve gotten more connected to it. Thank you for how you and your family have served our country, but you’re back,
02:14
Tab Norris
I’m.
02:14
Tom Stanfill
Back in the studio and we could not be more excited.
02:19
Tab Norris
I’ve never said that before.
02:21
Tom Stanfill
I’ve said, here’s what I’ve said. I’ve thought about changing up a bit. I’ve done a lot of stuff. And so I’m changing it up. I’m saying I couldn’t be more excited. I’m not saying this is the most I ever had, or we couldn’t have a better guest. I’m just saying I couldn’t be more excited than.
02:36
Tab Norris
It is true. That is a hundred percent true.
02:38
Tom Stanfill
I think it’s the first I’ve been on her podcast because she’s got a very successful podcast, very successful, huge following millions of people come to her everyday for advice. We haven’t had her on our podcast. Cause she said no. Many times calling and writing and calling. So ladies and gentlemen, Michelle Obama,
03:02
Tab Norris
That’s your best line. Yeah. That’s it.
03:06
Tom Stanfill
Michelle welcome. Oh, no, that ain’t this week, next week. Next week.
03:17
Tab Norris
Oh goodness. All right. Well,
03:19
Tom Stanfill
Can you introduce our guests? I do love this person with all my heart. I’m glad that she’s here, but I’m gonna, I’m not gonna steal your thunder. You entered.
03:26
Tab Norris
No thank you. Well, I know we have with us today, Bobby Kaler, and if you’ve met her or worked with her in any phase of your life, what we’re talking about? She’s amazing. I have worked with her for more than 13 years. She’s been an amazing part of our team forever. She, she continues to be part of our team a lot less than in the past, because she’s so busy with her new focus, which we’re so excited about. It’s Kaylor coach Ben Taylor coaching, but now it’s big time Kaler coaching and it sounds like you’re, I can’t wait. I told, I told you the other day, I was so excited to learn more about mental fitness coaching, which I know is your big thing. This is where you’re really pouring all of your effort for the most part now. I am anxious to learn more and so excited to have you with us.
04:25
Tab Norris
So thanks.
04:27
Bobbi Kahler
Thank you. Thanks for inviting me on the show and everyone’s going to be so disappointed, Tom. It’s like Obama.
04:35
Tom Stanfill
We’re trying to sell the show body. So no. I just thought that would be funny. No, I would rather have you honestly, I’d rather have you on the show that Michelle Obama, although that probably would probably, she might help us get more sponsors, but yeah, I really am excited. I am. Bobby talked to me and we, we discussed this mental fitness idea, but the listeners are probably much like me and need to know what is mental fitness? Why should we care about it? How does it relate to being successful in sales, whether you’re in sales leader or sales rep. Edges, Kate is because as I’ve gotten to know you about your new focus in venture, I was astounded at some of the things you shared with me.
05:23
Bobbi Kahler
So.
05:25
Tom Stanfill
Easily fit. Am I mentally fit that really? The question I asked the assessment. Okay. Let’s not.
05:30
Tab Norris
Push it here. Okay.
05:31
Bobbi Kahler
That’s right. What though, what’s cool about that. There are two assessments that will show you how mentally fit you are.
05:39
Tab Norris
I will crush that, bring it all in.
05:43
Bobbi Kahler
First. The first step is if you think you’re going to crush it.
05:48
Tab Norris
Solved and that’s going to really inspire me, but what I want to be in the program, sign me up. Yeah,
05:57
Tom Stanfill
You failed.
05:59
Bobbi Kahler
Next question. So think about mental fitness this way. It is our ability to respond to life’s challenges, stressors opportunities with a positive mental mindset, rather than a new negative or stressed mindset. Okay. So that’s what it is. Why that’s important is when we respond with a positive mental mindset, we are more resilient or more creative. We negotiate better or more productive and we take clear headed action. Right? Okay. You also said, how does it relate to sales? So think about it this way. If you are a sales person, you’re about to make a big presentation. What’s going on? What’s the chatter inside your head.
06:50
Tom Stanfill
Oh, that is so true. Yeah. When I have all that neural static, I can’t think clearly.
06:57
Bobbi Kahler
That’s exactly.
06:58
Tom Stanfill
Right. I can’t click. Yeah. It’s like, I’m in my head. I always thought that I’m in my head. I get nervous and it shuts down my ability to flex and say what I really want to say and be in the moment.
07:10
Tab Norris
You lose your creativity, just get boring.
07:20
Bobbi Kahler
But that’s exactly right. Right. We’re in our head, all those things disappear. Mental fitness is that ability in that moment to recognize whoa, I’m in my head and, and to switch out of it so that we can access the more positive part of our brain, which neuroscientist called the Sage part. Cause you’ve got the survival part.
07:40
Tom Stanfill
Okay.
07:40
Bobbi Kahler
A lot of us operate. Right. That’s kind of the primitive brain it’s fear-based right.
07:45
Tom Stanfill
Okay. That what they mean by the reptilian brain? I’ve heard that.
07:49
Bobbi Kahler
I’m not sure. Not a hundred percent sure that could because they refer to it as different things.
07:54
Tom Stanfill
Okay. So, so there’s a survival part of the brain kind of it’s like it’s fight or flight.
08:00
Bobbi Kahler
Exactly.
08:01
Tom Stanfill
Okay.
08:02
Bobbi Kahler
Exactly. When you’re in that part of the brain, you don’t have access to like things like the creativity. Like I said, negotiation skills, you don’t communicate as well. Learning shuts down. That’s a big one learning shuts down. Going back to that presentation thing, right? Here’s how now a sales manager comes in and they know this, person’s got a big presentation,
08:25
Tom Stanfill
Right?
08:26
Bobbi Kahler
There’s a couple of approaches, right. If you’re a sales man and you’re trying to manage your, and you’re trying to hype them up and you’re like, come on now, a lot’s riding on this. We gotta do what.
08:38
Tom Stanfill
We got to really nail this one.
08:40
Tab Norris
Yeah. You know what you just did. I just unlocked that bad place. It’s the bad part of my brain.
08:45
Bobbi Kahler
That’s exactly right. Versus helping the person shift to a Sage perspective, there would be more like, so Tom, think about how many time and tap, how many sales presentations have you made that have gone well. Right. What were the things that.
09:01
Tom Stanfill
We can do? Even if our sales manager’s a jerk, we still can ask ourselves that same question. Or they’re not mentally fit. We can ask ourselves that same question, picture, how many cans has gone? Well, got it.
09:13
Bobbi Kahler
Right. What did you do to get that good result? Right. Cause a neutral. I mean, those are kind of opposites, right? There’s one in the middle, which is, you’ve got this, just go for it. You’re going to crush it. That’s nice cheerleading, but it’s not helping them really to think about all the times that you’ve stepped into this and you’ve done well. Right. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s simple, but it’s a big deal.
09:37
Tom Stanfill
Okay. All right. That’s an example of how mental fitness drives performance.
09:46
Bobbi Kahler
That is correct. That’s correct.
09:48
Tab Norris
Can I ask you a crazy question? How do you build mental fitness? I mean, I may be, I’m just, I’m very curious.
09:58
Bobbi Kahler
Okay. Mental fitness has basically three muscles that are involved. If you think about physical fitness, right. You don’t go to the gym once and do one pushup and be like, whew, I’m good to go.
10:11
Tab Norris
Well, I do, but it hasn’t really been working.
10:14
Bobbi Kahler
That well. Right. So, so it’s kind of the same thing. There are three mental muscles that you wanna, that we focus on. One is called the self command muscle. Okay. And that’s our ability. Think about it this way. How much do we direct our mind and our attention versus how much is our mind running or just running in circles. Ruminating.
10:37
Tom Stanfill
Got.
10:37
Bobbi Kahler
It. In, and a lot of people think, oh, I’m I have self command. I have self command. I, and I thought I did too. I heard this question. You wake up at two in the morning and you can’t get back to sleep because you’re worried about X, Y, and Z, are you saying you’re choosing mat.
10:54
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Right,
10:56
Bobbi Kahler
Right. We’re not choosing it.
10:57
Tom Stanfill
We’re not choosing anxiety when you can’t be in the moment because you’re too stressed out about XYZ. Like I’m having lunch with my daughter-in-law the other day. I’m like, I’m struggling to be in the moment and not let the pressures of the day invade that meeting. That’s the ability to self command.
11:19
Bobbi Kahler
That is,
11:20
Tab Norris
You’re saying that when I, I’m not self commanding when I allow myself to not put that in a box somewhere and go to sleep.
11:29
Bobbi Kahler
Right,
11:30
Tab Norris
Right. Interesting.
11:32
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah. Here’s why, and oh my gosh, that was a big one for me. Here’s the thing because when we feel the stress, sometimes it’s like, Hey, it is, there is something that needs our attention. It’s just, what attention is it stressed out attention or is it intentional, measured, calm clear-headed.
11:53
Tom Stanfill
Right. Which means we’re going to be more productive at solving the problem if we’re not anxious.
11:59
Bobbi Kahler
Or.
11:59
Tom Stanfill
If we’re not. Yeah. Got it. That’s true. Yeah. Because the more amped up we get and the more we allow ourselves to spend the less, the, our ability to solve that problem. The way I’ve heard it say is the more you focus on the problem expands, you focus on the solution expand. The ability to navigate from the problem to the solution and then make a decision and you go to sleep, I need to address this tomorrow. Here’s what I’m going to do. That is that muscle is being developed.
12:27
Bobbi Kahler
To.
12:27
Tom Stanfill
Tell the body what to do because the body’s freaking out because the body’s paying attention to instincts, I guess, are nothing so much as instincts, but it’s just latent fears or subconscious fears that exist somewhere.
12:41
Tab Norris
Yeah. That’s good. What like, w like I know, maybe at that, maybe there’s, I’m a simpleton on this, but I mean, I know at times, and maybe this is a little exercise for mental fitness. I don’t know, but I’ll, if the only success I’ve ever had with that is if I go in, pull my pad out and I write down at two in the morning, Zach, here’s the price I need to get this solved in the morning. Here’s what’s going on. Here’s a couple of thoughts. If I will write that down, it is amazing that oftentimes I can go to slate.
13:14
Bobbi Kahler
That definitely helps cause it gets it out of your head.
13:17
Tab Norris
Okay. So that’s a step. That’s a step.
13:19
Bobbi Kahler
Definitely, definitely helps. The thing is it’s becoming a lot of people aren’t even aware of it. Right. We just think it’s the way it is. We don’t have a choice. Right. Like for me, I can feel it, my breath becomes shorter.
13:36
Tom Stanfill
Oh really?
13:38
Bobbi Kahler
And that’s a key indicator. Like, Ooh, I’m kind of in a, I’m not in a good state here. You know what I mean? That’s one, the self command muscle, and another one is called the Sage muscle.
13:49
Tom Stanfill
And this.
13:50
Bobbi Kahler
Sage. Yeah. This refers to actively tapping in to that positive, creative and calm region of our brains. Okay. The researcher Shahzad, Shamine, he’s the one he’s based out of Stanford. He’s worked with over 500,000 people. World-class athletes, CEOs of top one top fortune companies. When he teaches classes at Stanford, they recall to the stage when they were in there talking about the stage, the students say, oh, that’s like the Jed. I right. If you think about a Jetta who stands up on stage. Yeah. I thought that’s a great word picture for that.
14:29
Tom Stanfill
Getting, and I’m reflecting on what you’re saying related to times where you can move into this part of your, I’m trying to make that more tack of we’re applicable. How do we do that? If that’s really the question, how do we tap into that part of our brain that I guess you’re saying knows how to solve the problem.
14:51
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah. And, and part of that is quieting the chatter so that it will emerge because think about it, what I mean, time, you have so much wisdom already. Our brains are wired to solve problems. If it’s confused by the chatter, it’s hard for us to move forward. Actually, I think tabs example earlier when he gets up and he writes down, okay, this is what I’m worried about. It’s, it’s helping to calm that. That we’re in a, when we are in a calmer state, we, how many times does that happen? Where it’s like, oh yeah, that’s what I need to do. Yeah.
15:31
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. You get that versus your S you just, you got are overwhelmed or by flooded, by thoughts that you can’t make sense.
15:40
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah. It.
15:41
Tab Norris
Seems the way that I do.
15:41
Tom Stanfill
It on sale, I center myself in sales is one of the things that works for me to get in touch with that Sage mode is Sage muscle, I should say is I changed my role in a presentation. Like one of the things Kelly had, one of our guests we had on our podcast talked about, are you presenting for performance? Are you trying to communicate? You have two roles, either perform or to communicate. Like I said that to myself, I was speaking at a conference this last, well, I guess last week. I started, I walked into the room and it was a huge room. I’m like, how did it get a lot of people? I kinda, in my mind, I thought there’s gonna be like, like a hundred people there or 50 people there or whatever, and it’s gonna be like, whatever, and we’re gonna just talk, ?
16:18
Tom Stanfill
All of a sudden I got nervous. I reminded myself that my role and none of this sounds kind of trite, but my role is to serve them and to deliver this information. Like you said, I have the information I don’t need to get in the way, because I want to get re perform or make it about me. Somehow walking through that process, I can, I guess, tap into the Sage.
16:44
Bobbi Kahler
That’s right. It actually, one of the things that they talk about is one of the key ways we can shift to Sage is by focusing on serving, which I thought you guys might find. Interesting. Right.
17:01
Tom Stanfill
So what were you going to ask? Have you had a question? I think I don’t want to cut you off.
17:05
Tab Norris
Oh, it was funny. It was, I was along these same exact lines because I think I was doing, I mean, it’s the same exact thing. I’ve always, I I’ve gotten, we’ve been doing this a long time and I, I remember the early days of Amazon, I was, I would be so scared going into a sales presentation or a training session, either one, I’m like, I’m there, they’re going to figure me out. I’m a, I’m a fraud. I don’t know what I’m talking about. All those negative thoughts that come into your brain and you just, it was, I would walk around, outside and drink my coffee and tell myself, this is all I’m doing is serve. This is about them. Not about me. If I just go in there and I focus on serving these 20 people or two people or whatever is, that’s all I can do.
17:54
Tab Norris
It’s very freeing. I’m going to say things right wrong and everything in between who cares, I’m going to free myself up to do that. I mean, literally I had, I’d go through those motions. And that’s what it sounds like. That’s what you’re talking about.
18:07
Bobbi Kahler
Absolutely. It is, you know, because.
18:09
Tom Stanfill
Otherwise we’re, we’re the hero of the story.
18:12
Bobbi Kahler
That’s right. Yes, that’s right. We’re focused on serving it automatically, it takes our, it takes us kind of out of it which quiets our mind.
18:22
Tom Stanfill
It’s fine. I have a little, I didn’t know how this applied to mental fitness by, I have a little trick that I play on myself and it works so well. I say at the beginning of the presentation and this isn’t really for them, it’s for me is I tell them that literally, I said, it’s my job today. Role today, our goal today, I guess I say goal is not to sell you our solution. My goal today is to share with you the best practices that we’ve learned over the years by working with similar firms. That if you decide to solve this problem, I’m going to make you aware of what’s really critical or what we’ve learned about the best way to do that. If you happen to choose a scrape, do I want you to choose this? Yes, but this is the way I want to approach this present.
19:02
Tom Stanfill
I like, literally, it just completely calms me. Cause if it, if I say.
19:08
Tab Norris
It’s.
19:08
Tom Stanfill
Free, it’s almost like, yeah, it’s, I’m grounded. I’m more grounded. I guess what you’re saying, Bobby is by learning how to do that, I’m tapping into that part of my brain. That’s more effective and efficient at solving problems.
19:22
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah, absolutely. Think about how much time did that removes the pressure versus kind of make a sale. Now, of course, I’m going to pay the mortgage this month. I don’t make the sale. It takes that away so that we can be more creative. We can be more fluid in the moment. The calls happen, we can respond more, calmly to them.
19:44
Tom Stanfill
Right.
19:44
Bobbi Kahler
Okay. So that’s two of the muscles. Now the third one I think is really interesting and it’s called the saboteur interceptor. So let me just explain. Yeah. So no, should be that.
19:59
Tom Stanfill
Interceptor tab.
20:01
Tab Norris
Yes.
20:02
Tom Stanfill
You know what? That was going to be my guest. That was my guest.
20:06
Bobbi Kahler
Oh yeah. Tom you’re right. I like having her like, no,
20:11
Tab Norris
The cemetery interceptor cool name. They look cool on a t-shirt.
20:15
Bobbi Kahler
Wouldn’t it. This is the ability to recognize sabotage thoughts and intercept them before they intercept you. Let me explain what they mean by saboteurs. Saboteurs are automatic habits of thinking, feeling, and acting right? A lot of times we’re not even aware of them. What they’ve shown the researchers is that there are basically 10 different saboteurs. There’s one that’s universal for everyone. That’s the judge, right now, Tom, I just saw you react to that.
20:51
Tom Stanfill
You’re not good enough.
20:53
Bobbi Kahler
That’s right.
20:53
Tom Stanfill
Shouldn’t be the.
20:55
Bobbi Kahler
Right. You’re you know, you,
20:58
Tom Stanfill
The one that could be that people.
21:00
Bobbi Kahler
Really.
21:00
Tom Stanfill
Struggle with that. Like, there’s somebody.
21:07
Bobbi Kahler
Through me. They’re going to see. There’s nine accomplices. Let me just read these names to you and you can tell me if you can see any of these that salespeople might see you don’t might have. And here’s the thing. Some people have one or two and in some have maybe all of them, but here are some, the avoider, the controller.
21:31
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
21:33
Bobbi Kahler
Hyper achiever, hyper rational, hypervigilant. That’s a big one for me. The pleaser restless stickler, which is a perfectionist and victim.
21:50
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Can you say that one more time? I want everyone to want to get that one more time.
21:55
Bobbi Kahler
Okay. So all of them again. Yeah. So you’ve got the judge that’s.
21:59
Tom Stanfill
Universal. That’s a universal, the nine accomplices.
22:02
Bobbi Kahler
Okay. So you have the avoider.
22:03
Tom Stanfill
Avoider. Don’t do it.
22:06
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah. They put it off the controller.
22:09
Tom Stanfill
Okay. Like take me, which I think actually if you’ve done any Agram I think that’s my default when I get in a weak place, like the Enneagram, the nine personality. I guess it’s the nine ways that people, I guess it describes our desire. I don’t know if I’m, if I can explain the Enneagram, but it, your number, there’s a number that kind of says scribes, what you really want or desire. You have a go-to when you’re in stress. And that’s really what you’re saying. When you’re in a trouble, these are your go-to responses controller. What was after controller,
22:49
Bobbi Kahler
Then you have the hyper achiever.
22:52
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.
22:53
Bobbi Kahler
I see. A lot of salespeople could fall into that one. Right. The hyper achievers, why we can like hit whatever goals they’re in, ? It’s when it’s like any strength that goes too far, it then becomes a weakness. Right. So then you have hyper rational,
23:10
Tom Stanfill
You know,
23:11
Bobbi Kahler
Hypervigilant, pleaser, restless, which is a person likes to go from one thing to another, the stickler, which is the perfectionist and the victim.
23:25
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. The victim is, that’s the blame shift, right? It’s not my, I couldn’t have done it. It’s the company’s fault. It’s the, that it, and if you ask the question, well, is anybody that’s successful, they would avoid that, answering that question. What’s the key to, is the, to recognize your pattern and then address it.
23:50
Bobbi Kahler
The key is to recognize your pattern. The thing is like the saboteurs and also which one of these you have, and there is an assessment that, for that, a free assessment for that. I have to say, when I took it was spot on for me, stuff that I knew. And one was actually surprising. I knew that hypervigilant was something that I had. I mean, I knew that, and I’d worked on that. I’ve had emotional intelligence coaches in the past and I’ve worked on hat and I made moderate gains. When I went through this particular program within like two to three weeks, I went from waking up every night at two, o’clock worrying about everything to, I woke up and I’m like, oh, that’s hypervigilant. And I went back to sleep.
24:35
Tom Stanfill
Hypervigilance again.
24:38
Bobbi Kahler
Okay. So hypervigilant. Yeah.
24:40
Tom Stanfill
It may have, that may apply to me because I’m having the waking up in the middle of the night problems.
24:44
Bobbi Kahler
In a lot of these will cause that waking up, it’s not unique to that. Hypervigilance is the person who worries about everything that possibly could go wrong. You’re always scanning for danger.
24:58
Tom Stanfill
You’re always.
24:59
Tab Norris
Tom Piper, non vigilant, whatever that is. I’m where is there? There’s no danger anywhere talking about I’m part of my car, wherever the world I want. I’ll drive as fast as humanly possible.
25:16
Tom Stanfill
My wife would like me to be more, but this is the advice my wife gave me the other day while driving, this is the device. Are you ready? She says, you should look behind you before you backed up.
25:30
Tab Norris
No, that’s a crazy concept.
25:32
Tom Stanfill
You know what? She’s right. She’s right. I should. That’s a good point.
25:37
Bobbi Kahler
That’s I wouldn’t say that’s a vigilance. I’d say.
25:44
Tom Stanfill
I, my brain, what is this Bobby? Sorry to be selfish here. But I wanna, this is helpful. My brain wants, it’s hard to turn it off. I want to, my brain keeps trying to solve the problem, which is what happens if I wake up my brains, it’s it also, a lot of times I’ll be solving the problem while I sleep. I’ll sometimes wake up with a solution to my problem. Cause I was thinking about I’m sure I didn’t sleep well. If I actually wake up, I’m already on go. So what is that? That’s just constantly trying versus I’ll solve that tomorrow.
26:16
Tab Norris
I do the exact same thing. So I’m very anxious for the answer. That’s exactly what I do.
26:21
Bobbi Kahler
Okay. To answer that, tell me more about the thoughts you’re having in that moment. Like what’s driving it,
26:35
Tom Stanfill
What’s driving it. I would say it’s the problem is important. Like I care about the problem and maybe the solution isn’t obvious to me. I don’t, if you say what’s driving it, there’s probably some fear in the background. It’s like, it needs to be solved and I’m concerned about solving it.
26:57
Tab Norris
In that, can I add to this? See if you’ve had this, Tom, I feel hopeless. I’m like, it feels hopeless to me. There’s no answer. Yes. I’ll wake up in the middle of the night. It’s like, I just don’t think there’s answer. I’ll wake up the next day and I’m like, Mike, what was I doing? I’m an idiot. This was an easy thing to solve. Yeah. Does this put me in all this, make me a Sabbath tour entrepreneur or whatever they call that.
27:31
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. We ought to start. We can start another company. We’ll put Bobby out of business.
27:35
Bobbi Kahler
Entrepreneur. So here’s the thing. It depends because all the different saboteurs can affect you too, ? Cause they’re all in cahoots, basically what the judge. The person who wakes up at 2:00 AM and they’re thinking, oh my gosh, I’ve got this problem. No one else can solve this problem. I have to be the one to solve this problem. That would be more under the control.
27:59
Tom Stanfill
That’s probably me. I feel responsible to solve the problem. Yeah. And I know that’s not correct. That is, that is a weakness that I have. And, but that’s where I go under stress. My, my profile will tell me that. That’s where I go.
28:13
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah. Yeah. Completely. So does that make sense?
28:19
Tom Stanfill
Makes perfect sense. Knowing your, so once you know that, like you, that’s a light bulb for me. If I know that’s my controller, my Sabbath tour is a controller and then I’m believing that I can solve, I need to solve the problem and only I can solve the problem, which is false belief. I can address that belief with the truth.
28:42
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah.
28:44
Tom Stanfill
I’ll call tab at two in the morning and I’ll tell.
28:46
Tab Norris
Him.
28:47
Tom Stanfill
All the problem. And then I’ll get, okay, nevermind. I’m going to call somebody else. Nevermind. I’ll call somebody.
28:57
Tab Norris
Never call the Sabbath tour when you’ve got a problem.
29:03
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah. Tom, what you’re talking about there that’s the lie of the saboteur. Part of it is recognizing number one, which ones do you have? What are the lies they tell you?
29:13
Tom Stanfill
Right. The judge is basically in the background going, you’re not going to pull this off.
29:18
Bobbi Kahler
Oh. People have like some people’s their judges are incredibly nasty. Like you’re an idiot. You’ve never been good in anything. How did you mess up that presentation? If you make, like, if you mess something up, there is value in saying, wow, I didn’t do well.
29:36
Tom Stanfill
Right. What.
29:36
Bobbi Kahler
Can I learn from.
29:37
Tom Stanfill
A fair assessment,
29:38
Bobbi Kahler
A fair assessment, you know? That’s where that’s, there’s a distinction between judgment and discernment. Right? Discernment is how we learn. Like, oh, when I said this, it would have been better. Had I said this instead, or I didn’t read the cues that I was getting from the room. Those are discernments. It becomes judgment. When we’re like, I didn’t read the cues of the room and I’m an idiot for it. Piece of that is not necessary.
30:05
Tom Stanfill
It’s so powerful because the judger talks to who we are. Did you? Aren’t good enough. You can’t present well enough. You can’t pull this off the judge or a tax who we are versus when you are healthy, you say to yourself, I didn’t do a good job there, but I will. Next time if I learned this, it’s not about who I am. It’s about what I did. If I can separate what I’m doing, I’m not a bad writer. That article just wasn’t written well, because whatever reason, and I can learn from that. I’ll adjust it versus the judge tells me, no, you can’t write.
30:48
Bobbi Kahler
If you’re.
30:48
Tom Stanfill
Not good enough.
30:50
Bobbi Kahler
Right? If you think about it,
30:51
Tom Stanfill
Son of a b***h,
30:55
Bobbi Kahler
Judge’s nasty. Right? But think about it. There’s a Martin Seligman. Who’s a professor at university of Pennsylvania. He talks about learned optimism. Cause he started by his research originally was around learned helplessness. Then, and that’s, we can learn to be helpless. And he’s like, wait a minute. If we can learn to be helpless, we can learn to be optimistic and to solve our problems. He narrowed it down to three that’s explanatory styles, permanent, personal and pervasive in the judge tends to speak in permanent, personal and pervasive. You suck, you suck on your tests. You’re not smart. Versus if I fail a math test, just hypothetically, I’ve never failed one. I didn’t always crush them. Let’s say that.
31:47
Tom Stanfill
Let’s just say you did.
31:49
Tab Norris
I’m not going to answer that question if I did or didn’t.
31:52
Bobbi Kahler
So.
31:53
Tab Norris
That under wraps, my.
31:53
Tom Stanfill
Judger tells me I would probably fail.
31:58
Bobbi Kahler
But, but the difference is if I fail a math test and I’m like, wow, I did not do well on that test. I’m not running from reality. And, and so the rest of it would be next time I will study better. I will study harder. I’ll prepare better for that test. Whereas if I’m, if it’s more of the pessimistic or the judge, it’s like, I’m terrible at taking tests. I’m so stupid. I’ll never be good at this. Well, why.
32:24
Tom Stanfill
You’ll never going to get a job. You’ll always be this or whatever. Yeah.
32:27
Bobbi Kahler
I’m never going to make a sale. I always blow my presentations. I can never ask for the, whatever it is.
32:33
Tab Norris
Yeah. That’s really, I’m reading a book called extreme ownership. Don’t she ever read? That was about a couple of Navy seals.
32:41
Bobbi Kahler
And I’ve heard it.
32:41
Tom Stanfill
It is to be a Navy seal.
32:43
Tab Norris
Well, yeah, me either. I, I checked that. I pulled that off my goals after I read this book,
32:50
Tom Stanfill
It.
32:51
Tab Norris
Was my judge or you can feel.
32:53
Tom Stanfill
It. I can’t believe you agreed with me. Hold on. Let me pull up.
32:58
Tab Norris
What am I, what is that? My hyper.
33:00
Tom Stanfill
Vigilant.
33:01
Tab Norris
Hypervigilant.
33:03
Tom Stanfill
I don’t know what you are. I.
33:04
Tab Norris
Don’t know either. I’m a superhero though, but nobody, it was Bobby. It’s so good. You’d like that book by the way. I think it talks about this and it’s exactly what you’re saying. It was so powerful and he’d bring it into the business world for sales groups. It was for sales leaders. Like he’s going to a board meeting because his sales are not where they need to be. And he’s trying to make excuses. The guy, his coach is basically saying own it,
33:29
Bobbi Kahler
Own it.
33:30
Tab Norris
Do what you said. Talk about what you, here’s, why this is wrong. It’s my fault. I’m the leader. Here are the things that I’m going to do to fix it. That’s exactly what you’re doing. This is really I’m writing this down. This is powerful.
33:42
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah. And one quick note there too. His Seligman, when he was doing his research on the learned optimism, he worked with MetLife and helped them build. He helped them what hire for like learn who’s higher in optimism. They started hiring for that. What happened is the people who are higher and optimism, which you can learn and build, they outsold their peers by 37%.
34:09
Tom Stanfill
Wow. Totally get that.
34:12
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah. They didn’t experience the turnover because think about it. If you’re, if you get into, if you’re not doing well in your yeah. That’s right. So you didn’t have the turnover. So it saved them. Just an imaginable about some money. Well, not unimaginable. I just don’t know the number off the top of the,
34:30
Tom Stanfill
I just saw that. Yeah. It’s imaginable. I just can’t imagine it. It is. That Optum has been social cause I’ve been in roles in sales, in my, I don’t know how many years I’ve been in sales too many to section.
34:47
Tab Norris
Three.
34:48
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Thank you Tim. That where I believe that I could win a deal, find opportunities when opportunities I did. When I didn’t believe it, I, I did. I mean, it is so critical. You can, you almost can feel when you there’s something that happens in sales when you cross a line and you’re like, I get it. I get who needs it. I know what to say. It just, the light bulb comes over and you just, and you can see it versus there’s this time. Like no one’s ever gonna stop. Yeah. I don’t really and really set. It’s so funny. We’re talking about two critical things for everybody, which is confidence and clarity, right? It’s like if we are mentally healthy, right. Or not mentally fit mentally fit, not healthy. If we’re mentally fit, I’m so stupid.
35:52
Tab Norris
I’m thinking of that. Chris Farley. I know Paul McCartney. He was interviewing.
36:04
Tom Stanfill
Chris Farley. You would.
36:07
Tab Norris
Show host shows. You remember where you were on the via. Never gonna make.
36:17
Tom Stanfill
Use that Bobby and one of your trainings or coaching session.
36:20
Bobbi Kahler
Oh my God.
36:22
Tom Stanfill
Cause he got a big, he’s got a big judgment going on. I don’t know what,
36:25
Tab Norris
Oh yeah, he does the perfect example.
36:29
Tom Stanfill
Sorry for those of you on our vast audience who haven’t, aren’t familiar with that skit. We’re just gonna we’ll move on now.
36:38
Tab Norris
But anyway,
36:40
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Anyway, I forgot what I was gonna say, but yeah, the competence and clarity that is so it’s really what you’re saying about mentally being mentally fit leads to competence, which not only is it we’ve been talking a lot about presentation and kind of that moment, whether it’s one-to-one or Monday mini. I also think this plays into working upstream when we want to talk to the executives and that can be an intimidating thing, asking tough questions or having to redirect or lead, put yourself in a leader’s cause really selling is about leading people to a better solution and to lead people to a better solution we have to lead. We may be a little intimidated by that. I can see how this would apply to any advice specifically to people who struggle with taking the lead and kind of, using their voice to, kind of command the room or to leave when they’re dealing with people who may be older, more successful, more powerful.
37:49
Bobbi Kahler
I think it kind of goes, you were talking about earlier, which is really being clear on why are you there?
37:56
Tom Stanfill
Okay.
37:57
Bobbi Kahler
You know what I mean? Like years ago, 2003, I think it was 2002, something like that. I used to coach new professional speakers. They were Prentice, professional speakers and there are, and they would always say to me like, well, why would anybody want to listen to me? I’m like, that’s a good question. Why should they listen to you? It has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the message it has to do with how you’re going to help them. How are you going to help them, you know, live better or sell better or, you know, somehow better when you know that. I think, I think some of the chatter goes away.
38:29
Tom Stanfill
So it’s been a lot directing. It’s redirecting the question in a healthy way. That’s right. Why, why should I listen to you? Meaning what information do you have to share versus why should I listen to you? Because you’re a nobody. It’s to be able to traffic that information and say, this isn’t about me. This is about the information. If I’m lacking the information, I’m not lacking as a person, I just need to go get the information.
38:56
Bobbi Kahler
I need better information.
38:57
Tom Stanfill
Versus I can’t entertain because I’m not an entertainer.
39:00
Bobbi Kahler
Right. Right. Just like, it, think about it. Like when you think about the saboteurs, the one that comes to mind is pleaser. Think about how that affects someone when they’re asking for the business.
39:12
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. So yeah, when they are, yeah.
39:17
Bobbi Kahler
Well, I don’t want him to not like me. I don’t want, I worked with someone. This was when I was coaching, we, it was an Oklahoma was an Azlan client and he, this guy was amazing at building relationships. Right. But he had never the business. I’m like why? And he’s. He said, I don’t want him to not like me. I’m like, they know why you’re there.
39:40
Tab Norris
These are like your, like you like, whatever.
39:43
Bobbi Kahler
Right. This was a huge hurdle for him. That to me is pleaser.
39:47
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. That’s a pleaser. Yeah. There’s a way to move the deal forward without asking, putting, making it awkward. At the same time, it all, if we’re making it about us, which is, that’s what that’s about. We that’s one of the things that we talk about when we’re training certain for certain roles is being reactive as self centered, because it’s about, it’s like, we’re here to serve them. We’re here to help them solve a problem. If they don’t have to solve their problem and we just let them flounder. And so it’s not, yeah. It’s not what’s best for them.
40:22
Bobbi Kahler
No, not at all.
40:24
Tom Stanfill
So powerful. Bobby, what do we need to do to get, give us some action items, some takeaways to, take what we’ve learned. Cause you’ve unpacked a lot of really good stuff here to become more mentally fit. Where should we start? What’s a good place to start.
40:41
Bobbi Kahler
Okay. So awareness is key, right? Really becoming aware of when we’re kind of going into that more of the hijack mode, this is the saboteur mode. Okay. There, there are two assessments high and they’re both free and they take five minutes max. Wow. One will tell you which the saboteurs you have, which are most active. One will tell you it’s called PQ score. So PQ, it stands for positive intelligence. It will tell you where you are on a scale of one to 175 is the tipping point.
41:18
Tom Stanfill
And that’s good. It’s.
41:20
Bobbi Kahler
Good.
41:22
Tom Stanfill
75, 75.
41:25
Bobbi Kahler
Should know what a Tom should’ve known it, but what’s troubling.
41:29
Tom Stanfill
About what they need to look up. PQ score.
41:32
Bobbi Kahler
If I could send you a link it’s if you go to positive intelligence.com.
41:38
Tom Stanfill
Okay. Positive intelligence.
41:39
Tab Norris
Got that.
41:40
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah. There’s it’s if there’s a page called meet the saboteur it’s saboteurs and then the one for there’s a tab called science and that’s where you can learn your score. Now, what they’ve determined this organization is only about 20% of the people are at 75 or above.
42:01
Tom Stanfill
Okay.
42:02
Bobbi Kahler
Most of us, most people are below that 75,
42:06
Tab Norris
I think it won’t be the case for me. I’ll crush.
42:08
Bobbi Kahler
Them. I know.
42:15
Tab Norris
Delusional. It’s a new one. They just came out with, I love this. I.
42:26
Tom Stanfill
To got a really good core.
42:29
Tab Norris
Promise. I’m going to win best personality.
42:33
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Bobby, I think this is the avoider. This is the kid, the slow kid in the class. Oh no. I’m the fastest. Did you win the race? I know, but I wasn’t really racing.
42:44
Tab Norris
Yeah. That’s a skew of the blame. She the excuse,
42:47
Tom Stanfill
Excuse,
42:49
Tab Norris
Excuse her.
42:50
Tom Stanfill
Go to positive until tele.com and anything else that it’s not a good place to start, obviously listen to your book. You listen to your podcast, tell them about your podcast.
43:03
Bobbi Kahler
The podcast is unyielding thriving, no matter what. It has two formats, Wednesdays, our interviews, which we’re actually taking a hiatus for, to reset for the new season, the Monday’s rise and thrive. Those, those continue. Every Monday a new one drops their.
43:23
Tab Norris
And thrive. Can you give us a little kind of peak? What is that about?
43:27
Bobbi Kahler
Super short episodes, like five to 10 minutes, usually around seven. It’s all things related to personal mastery. Self-leadership mental fitness, that type of thing. And it’s just a, yeah. And what’s cool about that. I’ve had a lot of the sales managers send that onto their teams. Like, Hey, take a listen to this. It’s going to help you. You know, whatever. So.
43:48
Tom Stanfill
Reps would be good for reps, managers, anybody,
43:51
Bobbi Kahler
Anybody. I mean, I have teachers who listened to it. I have people that I met. I mean, yeah. We have a lot of different people.
43:56
Tom Stanfill
Well, you’re you do a great job. I mean, you’re a great communicator. So I highly recommend Bobby’s podcast. Definitely.
44:04
Tab Norris
I mean always, and I will say the greatest coach I’ve ever been 27 years that I’ve ever worked with and I’m just amazed. It’s not shocking that you’re kind of running with this. So.
44:20
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. So excited.
44:21
Bobbi Kahler
My heart’s here for it, you know? Cause they was just tough. Sales leadership is tough. If I can support in that role, happy to do it.
44:29
Tom Stanfill
No place to hide.
44:32
Bobbi Kahler
Yeah.
44:33
Tab Norris
Yeah.
44:33
Tom Stanfill
There’s no place to hide in sales. Yeah.
44:36
Bobbi Kahler
So.
44:38
Tom Stanfill
Just learned a lot. Bobby mental. Here’s what I heard. Big picture. Mental fitness is critical to performance. Yes. If you want to be successful. It’s one of the things were over we overlook is mental fitness and that really drives performance, leads to competence and clarity allows us really to be our best self and, and really shut down the things that keep us from performing, which is a lot as a lot more to do with what’s happening in the mind and how we think than we then than just memorizing our presentation or learning skills and developing our expertise, which are all important. Right. This is another aspect, which yeah. I think there’s a lot to learn here. So thank you incredibly helpful. Any last thoughts or words of wisdom?
45:26
Tab Norris
I mean, it’s just, I can’t wait to do the assessment. I mean, seriously, this is a,
45:31
Tom Stanfill
This.
45:34
Tab Norris
I’m not going to brag. Maybe we’ll share our scores on the next podcast. I don’t know. Maybe we just kick off with that.
45:40
Bobbi Kahler
You know,
45:43
Tab Norris
I would come in here, Dom got an 82. I got to say,
45:47
Tom Stanfill
Well, I’m in a lie because I’m good at knowing what the right.
45:51
Tab Norris
What did you get seven? Is that good? Or I can’t remember.
45:55
Bobbi Kahler
I think she said the lower.
46:00
Tab Norris
She.
46:00
Bobbi Kahler
Said the closer you are to one the better.
46:02
Tom Stanfill
Yes. I love it. I would love it. I could spend another hour on how to learn optimism. I think that’s a, that any books that you recommend, one book that like captures, captures that captures, but this that helps people learn more about mental fitness.
46:21
Bobbi Kahler
Yes. Positive there. His shahzad his book is called positive intelligence.
I highly recommend that. Highly recommend that. And I’m on optimism. Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman completely. That’s a fabulous book.
46:40
Tom Stanfill
I love that. Like you can learn gratitude. You can learn optimism. We, we can change this. That’s awesome. Bobby, thank you so much. Thank you for being on the show.
46:50
Tab Norris
Thank you,
46:50
Tom Stanfill
Bobby. Thanks for listening to another episode of SALES with ASLAN and if you like what you’re hearing, please like the show, give us positive comments or negative comments. Tell us how we’re doing so we can serve you better.
