Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.

The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.

The following are notes from EP. 196 Decoding the Deal: Unveiling the Key Decision Makers In Every Sales Meeting

Are you tired of pitching to the wrong people? Feeling like your deals stall because you haven't identified the key decision maker? Join ASLAN founders Tom and Tab as they unveil the secrets to unmasking the power players in every sales meeting.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• The Role of Discovery: Go beyond titles and uncover the true function of everyone at the table.
• Identifying Potential Blockers: Learn how to spot deal saboteurs and navigate their influence.
• The Power of Healthy Pessimism: Discover how a little strategic skepticism can help you prepare for every obstacle and close more deals.

Stop wasting time and energy on dead-end conversations. This podcast equips you with the skills to confidently navigate any sales environment, identify the real decision maker, and confidently close the deal. Hit subscribe and get ready to transform your sales game!

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00:14
Tom Stanfill
Thanks for joining us for another episode of sales with ASLAN. And I'm finally back in the studio with my trusty co host, Tab Norris. And we both know, Tab, that these, that people listen to podcasts, have a choice in where they're going to find education, entertainment. And we're very grateful that they're here with us today.

00:30
Tab Norris
Yes. It's always so great. Love it.

00:33
Tom Stanfill
I don't know if you're that sincere, tab, but we're going to move on.

00:36
Tab Norris
I am.

00:37
Tom Stanfill
I am so sincere. Beautiful. Good, good. Well, I know you're sincere about the topic today because this bubbled up in a workshop that I was delivering recently, and it reminded me of the importance of not forgetting a critical element of selling. And it really is so easy to forget, but really determining who is the decision maker.

01:04
Tab Norris
It seems so simple, but it's pretty huge. And it's not always easy.

01:10
Tom Stanfill
Right? Well, because there's information that you're getting, right. Somebody calls, somebody reaches out, you know, they say, hey, I want to talk to you about whatever. And then they say, I'm going to pull my team members in. And so they're all coming at you saying, I want this. I need this. I just had a meeting with a company that you're very familiar with, five people involved. They all have different roles. And it's like where I'm working with the right people. Right. And so it's easy to get. It's easy to get comfortable. Gartner says. I think a recent study said there's 6.8 people involved in the average number of people involved in a B. Two B decision related to buying a solution is 6.8, which I don't know how they get to 6.8, but are you seeing that is that number?

01:52
Tab Norris
Oh, I think it's worse than that. I think it's getting worse. I think it's probably more than that now. I think it's, I think it's getting tougher and tougher every year. I just feel like things are, you know, ever since COVID I think it just continues to get tougher and tougher. I think there's so many factors, like the virtual thing. Have you seen that really impact this?

02:16
Tom Stanfill
I think virtual has changed it because it's so easy. Like, I have a meeting on Monday, and it's so easy to invite 15 people to a meeting. Some will be there on site and some people will join for I was, yeah, I was, you know, I was presenting to a company not too long ago, and there must have been 20 something people.

02:35
Tab Norris
Yeah, I just had the same thing. I would have normally gotten on a flight and gone to St. Louis or wherever they were, and I would have had a hand, like five people in that meeting and it would be great. But I would have smelled, you know, I mean, I would have figured things out. But then I have 20 people on this Zoom call, and half of them don't have their cameras on.

02:56
Tom Stanfill
Well, that's a good point. Not only is there more people, because it's easy to invite them into the process, because they can just, hey, just join a meeting, right, wherever they are, they don't have to fly anywhere. And they're not gonna say, hey, look, we don't want you to fly over the place, and we don't wait. We're gonna limit it to this as our group, but also determining, you know, who has the flower and rank, and we're gonna talk about why that's important. So, yeah, that, yeah, that's important. So what we wanna do today is kind of remind everybody of the importance of really understanding who the players are. And there's three types of sellers I've noticed over the years of doing this tab, there's three approaches. I mean, maybe not types of sellers, but three approaches to kind of determining the decision maker.

03:44
Tom Stanfill
And the one is just assume, you know, that always pays off.

03:49
Tab Norris
That's always a great system.

03:51
Tom Stanfill
You're asking me these questions, you're acting like the decision maker.

03:55
Tab Norris
Therefore you are.

03:57
Tom Stanfill
Therefore you are the decision maker. Yeah, like I had a deal fall apart a couple of years ago where the person reached out, very passionate and even I started working with the SVP and that was, you know, that, you know, looked like were talking to the right people. Well, the CEO was connected to somebody else, chose that solution, which is different than the solution I offered, and off they went and that deal went away. Now, I didn't assume that I knew who the decision maker was, but actually that's not true. As I reflect on that, I think I assume that the SVP was.

04:29
Tab Norris
Yeah.

04:30
Tom Stanfill
And because it felt like that was the right person. So based on the information, so I made a mistake. So people assume based on the information they're getting. And that's also the easy, that's sort of the lazy thing to do. It's like, that's easy. You know, then they, then there's people that think the formal structure, right, that tells me who the decision makers are, the people that the highest ranked people are, the people that are the decision makers. You know, the. The SVP outranks the VP, and the VP outranks the director, and the director outranks the manager. And so therefore, I know who. Right. And that's. That's. That's one approach, but that's actually not accurate either. The real. The people that really understand how to win deals, who have a higher close rate and don't get sabotaged in the end.

05:21
Tom Stanfill
And one of the reasons they have higher close rate is because they actually know who the real decision makers are. They find out the real decision drivers from the real people, and then they present to the right people the right things. Right. Cause that's one of the problems if you don't know who the decision maker is. And those are the people that understand the informal. Like, there is a political structure in every organization when they're making a decision. So that's this informal group. And the status within the group is not determined by rank, but it's determined by influence. It's like being in high school.

05:55
Tab Norris
Yes.

05:56
Tom Stanfill
Right. You're all at. You're all hanging out in the lunch room right there. You could say there's a rank. Right. This person has the highest GPA, or this person's president of this. Their club, captain of the football team, our captain. There could be that. Yeah. But the reality is what we're gonna do on Friday, it's determined by somebody who has the most influence. Right. And then there's person that he or she listens to that will decide what we do on Friday. And there's people that they don't listen to that will decide what they do. And then there's people like, hey, I'll find out if that place is available. And then that person goes and finds out. But they're not the one that determined it. It's just like high school.

06:35
Tab Norris
Yeah. Yeah, that's a great word picture. I'm gonna remember that next deal I'm working.

06:39
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, really? Yeah. Cause you're like. Cause there's people in companies to go to lunch together. There's people that talk. There's people that don't talk. And people are trying to move up the ladder. Right. People are trying. It's all political. And so we need to understand the political structure, and that's really what we want to talk about today.

06:57
Tab Norris
Well, can I tell a story? Yeah, tell me, because I just lost a deal. You know, I would love to say we always share stories where we crush it and we're just perfect, but I know you're going to be shocked, Tom. I lost a deal and it was my fault. And it's exactly what we're talking about here. It was a great, just everything was perfect, you know, great lead, looked fantastic. The tie. I did a little bit more of what your second version was. Yeah. I really trusted the structure.

07:30
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

07:30
Tab Norris
This person. And it was a lead, it was a proactive thing. So I'm like. And he had the right title. He brought in the right people. I mean, it was just, everything was. I'm just like, this is too easy. This is amazing. We are a perfect fit based on what I'm learning. Well, it goes silent and I get an email that says, went a different direction. You're out. I mean, like, we lost. And, I mean, it was. I'm sure you've had that happen to you. You just get completely blindsided. You thought we're the perfect fit. They line up beautifully. It was a global deal. It really was right in our sweet spot. Guess what I found out. It's exactly what you said. There was a guy who was like a regular frontline kind of manager who just happened to be very.

08:18
Tab Norris
He was cool in the lunch room, I guess.

08:20
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. And he had it.

08:22
Tab Norris
He had power. He had the influence because, and it was something. It was so crazy. If I had known this, I do believe we could have won the deal. But I didn't find out that his criteria was, of all things, he wanted to know. He cared a ton about how many actual trainers were located in Europe.

08:42
Tom Stanfill
Like, yeah, so that question. Yeah, that's got to be answered.

08:46
Tab Norris
And so this other company figured that out and figured out, and guess what? They drove that home, like, laid it out, made it real tight and real clear. And so when I'm getting my feedback of why I lost, guess what? That was it. And it all was because I didn't find that person that had influence that wasn't in the chart.

09:05
Tom Stanfill
That is why. And that's the number one reason it's so important for you to identify who the people are, because they have their own formal and informal decision drivers.

09:17
Tab Norris
Yep.

09:18
Tom Stanfill
And the formal are probably easier to uncover. Like, they have a spreadsheet says, this is the things we care about. We care about, you know, that it's global, it's this and so. And as a category, you go, yeah, I got that. But the informal is like, I want to know the names of people that you have and I want to see all the trainers and I want to know. And because the last time I did this isn't happening, and I want to know they can speak like, and you don't really. And you only got a limited amount of time to present your solution. And if you really don't know, because we're always making decisions. And so if you don't know the drivers, you don't know what to present because they're also conflicting drivers. Well, yeah.

09:54
Tab Norris
And there's so many that can be, that you can't even figure them all out. I mean, like, there's no way. You've got to, you just have to be a lot more. I always tell people that are really good at this, they're just a little pessimistic. Like, they're, that's a good way to just, they're, they're just, they feel like every deal is going to fail. Like they're going to get undercut. They're not overly optimistic, like a lot of salespeople.

10:21
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

10:21
Tab Norris
Tend to be.

10:22
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Which is a good trait when you're doing the hard work. Yeah.

10:27
Tab Norris
Maybe not political structure. So anyway. Well, I can. I just would, I'd love to. This is something I know you spent a lot of time on, and I had a, I really wanted to ask you a few questions about this, if you're open to that.

10:41
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, I would love. No, I'm not open to have. Are you receptive? Yeah, I'm not. I'm very. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I want to. I want to, I want to say that one other thing before we dive into questions. I think you know, you're pointing out why we want to uncover the political structure. Because if we don't know the decision driver, we won't know the decision drivers if we don't know who's making the decision.

11:02
Tab Norris
Right.

11:03
Tom Stanfill
Right. That's just required. Right. The other thing is, let's say you know who the decision maker is. Right. But you don't. Access is difficult. And you're like, well, I know who it is, and I can. The problem then is you have other people who are untrained. Right. And have lived and don't understand your solution. Their description of your solution is now in their hands to say it to somebody else. Unless, again, because if you have access, you can talk to them. Otherwise, they're there once removed, and now they're going to have to carry that message, and you don't want that to happen.

11:36
Tab Norris
Right. So that's. So. Yeah. Makes sense. I mean, that's why this is such a big deal. I mean. Yeah, I totally get it. It's like yeah. And I do think that is the scariest place to be, isn't it? Trusting somebody else to go, hey, I got it. No problem. I'll present for you. Oh, no.

11:52
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

11:53
Tab Norris
I'll make sure all the people that matter really get the message right.

11:56
Tom Stanfill
Exactly.

11:57
Tab Norris
That's good. All right. So, going down this road, first question I had for you is, like, what's the first step?

12:06
Tom Stanfill
So, the first step is to we lay is label the players like you. There's four roles in the process or in the decision making. On the decision making team, if you will. I like to call it a political structure, because I think of it as political, and that helps me remind myself this isn't a hierarchical thing. This is, like, an informal structure. And if you think about. There's really four people. There's people that determine what will happen. There's people that you. So I just think of it not as rank, not title, but who are the people? Or who is the person? There's always one person has the most influence, and that's the person that will determine what will happen are the people that determine the budget. They're the people that determine the decision break decision drivers.

12:51
Tom Stanfill
And then there's the people that they listen to, because people do not want to make a decision in. In. Right. In a silo. They're like, this is what we're doing. Because, by the way, if it doesn't go well.

13:03
Tab Norris
Yeah, yeah.

13:04
Tom Stanfill
Everybody buy in. Yeah.

13:05
Tab Norris
They want to be.

13:07
Tom Stanfill
We all kind of stuck together.

13:09
Tab Norris
Jimmy and Johnny, you were right there with me.

13:12
Tom Stanfill
Exactly. And then. And so those are the people that are on the inner circle. Right. The influencers on the inner circle. Now, the other cool thing is, if there's an influencer who also is aligned with you and wants you to win, they can be a sponsor. Right. So that's another player, an influencer who wants you to win. That's a key and is connected to the decision maker. Now, they're a sponsor, and they're the ones that can potentially get you connected to the decision maker. Then there's the people who make it happen. Those are your evaluators. And usually there's one evaluator. They're the point person. They're the ones that talk to you all the time. There's the one that asks all the questions. There's the one that coordinate everything. And here's the scary thing about the evaluator. They act like the decision maker.

14:03
Tab Norris
They totally do. And how many times have we all been fooled by that one? And they're so passionate and they're so, like, they're doing this and this is great.

14:12
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

14:13
Tab Norris
And you're like, okay, yeah, that's.

14:15
Tom Stanfill
That can be. Now, I love working with evaluators because they are invested in it. That's their responsibility. That's their priority. And so it's great to work, but you want to be able to work together with them to serve the decision maker because it's ultimately going to make them look good. And they need to feel confident that if they're going to allow you access to the decision maker or key influencers, they're going to look good because that's a big risk for them, especially if you want to change the decision drivers.

14:48
Tab Norris
Yeah.

14:49
Tom Stanfill
Because they're evaluated on going to find a solution that matches, not their decision drivers because they're not online. If this winter, this thing goes, fails, they're not online. They're not at risk. They're not on. They're not, you know, they're not signing up for this. They're saying, I'm just on. I'm here to support you to go get this done.

15:08
Tab Norris
Yeah.

15:08
Tom Stanfill
And so they're judged by how close, how well they can align the solution to the decision drivers that the decision maker, you know, laid out. So that's a risk for them and which also can be a barrier to getting the decision maker as you don't match. And then there's the last person on the team is a coach, critical role. This is a person that knows what's happening, cares about the solution, meaning they probably experienced the problem but doesn't have. There's not part of the decision making process.

15:45
Tab Norris
Yeah.

15:45
Tom Stanfill
So they see what's happening in the room. They know who the players are, but. And they're also aligned with you. They want. They're your advocate.

15:57
Tab Norris
Yeah, that's really good. Well, so how. Any tips or ideas of how you work with each one? Because obviously they're very different. Do you have some things to share about the best way to work with, like the, you know, your coach or your evaluator?

16:15
Tom Stanfill
Well, the key. The first thing you got to find out is how they aligned with you. Okay, well, now let me back up. I'd say the first thing we got to find out is who they are.

16:25
Tab Norris
Yeah. So figure out or mapping.

16:29
Tom Stanfill
There's a couple of things that you can do. And of course, you know, some of this tab, although we haven't talked about it in a while. Right.

16:37
Tab Norris
Obviously, I'm not very good at this. I just lost a deal, so I need this.

16:41
Tom Stanfill
Well, you can't have 100% close rate tab, nor can I. But one of the things that people overlook that's helpful in figuring out who the players are is they wait till it's too late.

16:56
Tab Norris
Yes.

16:57
Tom Stanfill
When you're early, when you're walking in the door. Right. Or you're on your first meeting, you know what? Sometimes you're meeting with a low level person who's put, who's connected you and said, hey, I'm reaching out to see if you can do this. And if it's what you offer matches, I'm out. I just did the research. I'm going to introduce you to. I'm going to introduce you to Susan. Right. Or Jamie, and that's your. And a lot of people overlook that first person rather than go, well, who's Jamie and who's Susan, and where'd this come from? And what. Because they're just, like, connecting the dots.

17:30
Tab Norris
Yeah.

17:31
Tom Stanfill
They're just saying, hey, I did some research. I'm in marketing. I made marketing. I did something. I pulled this together, and I want to see if you could do it. Great. Here's the people you should talk to. And you're out.

17:38
Tab Norris
Yeah.

17:39
Tom Stanfill
And we just overlook that person. Or as you're walking through the building or you're having your initial conversations, you want to. You want to be looking for people who you can talk to later again, who aren't going to be all formal on you.

17:52
Tab Norris
Right.

17:53
Tom Stanfill
I mean, literally, I've worked with people in the, when I've been in a very formal situation who met me at the door and walked me to the presentation.

18:00
Tab Norris
Yeah.

18:01
Tom Stanfill
You know, made friends with them, and now maybe they don't really, they know what's happening in that room, but at a certain point in time, this thing's gonna go dark, purchasing may get involved, especially if it's a large deal. So early. Being involved early and looking for the. For. For clues. I, like, I looked for clues to help me see who are the, who are the decision makers.

18:25
Tab Norris
I heard you say that. That's. That stuck with me. I've heard you say that before. This thing's gonna go dark.

18:31
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

18:32
Tab Norris
And when it does, you're not gonna be able to get information. And that's a really, that's a good way to think about that, is it feels all good and happy in the beginning, but be a little pessimistic or be. Yeah. Looking around. But I will say, like, we talked about this a little bit earlier. Don't you think that if you can't be on site. It does make it harder.

18:55
Tom Stanfill
It definitely makes it harder to figure.

18:57
Tab Norris
That out because you can.

18:57
Tom Stanfill
That's where you gotta look at cues. Like, if you watch how people interact, if it's a Zoom call, your teams call, and you watch how people interact or who interrupts who to ask a question and the kinds of questions people ask, you can see people that speak with more authority. People listen to them more. Just don't look at the titles. Watch how they interact with each other, and you'll start to get. And watch how they talk. They'll say things like, we or they, or we'll have to talk to the team, or you want to double click on that. What do you mean by who's we or who's they or who else is involved? My favorite question is to just sort of lay out the process.

19:41
Tab Norris
Okay.

19:42
Tom Stanfill
Right. I'd say, like, let's just assume you this is a solution that you want to invest in. Let's say you're early and they're not sure.

19:48
Tab Norris
Yeah.

19:50
Tom Stanfill
What's the process? Like, what would you do next? And then you're like, well, who would be involved with that, right. And who initiated this and who's. Who's on the hook if it goes well or doesn't go well. So you just kind of don't focus on this little meeting and the people you're talking to, but just step back. Where'd it come from and where's it going and who's involved, and if I get that big picture and also try to assume, you know, this is where rank does help, is there somebody up above that will get involved? Yeah, rank could equal influence.

20:24
Tab Norris
Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Well, anything about, like, kind of breaking it down into the individual roles and is there anything specific? Because, I mean, that's kind of from a broad perspective, but anything. Anything just around, like, evaluators or around coaches that we should be aware of?

20:45
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. I think the biggest two things I think people overlook tab, and one is a negative influencer. I think you and I both have been burnt. Negative influencers.

20:57
Tab Norris
Oh, my gosh. So many times it hurts.

21:00
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Yeah. I have a story, like, you got an influencer that you didn't recognize, and they're negative.

21:06
Tab Norris
Right.

21:07
Tom Stanfill
And so we assume. And we, like, I had a situation where I was. It was a large distributor, and I was working with a decision maker. So I am working with the decision maker, and I believe it's a decision maker, but there's an influencer that I didn't see? And so the decision maker was head of all of sales, all of revenue. And they're like, we want to buy this. We're investing. The answer is yes. Before we move forward, though, I want you to go to Greenville and deliver this program, pilot program, to a team in Greenville. Being the naive, this is probably 20 years ago. Being the naive person that I was, I said, sure. Feeling confident that I've won the deal, and I'm just kind of educating. I'm letting people know. Yeah, right.

21:51
Tom Stanfill
I'm letting people know that what we're doing, and I'm happy to involve them in the process, was kind of a roadshow in my mind. So I assume I didn't look at the whole political structure, and I didn't ask the question, why am I going to Greenville? You're not in Greenville. You're in Atlanta. Right. Why do you want me to go to Greenville? I didn't ask that question. I just went to Greenville. Deliver the program. Deliver the program. Everybody seemed to like it. It was going well. And at the end of the workshop, this guy stands up, looks like he's about 60 years old, gray hair, stands with a certain power and authority, and ask a question. He says, you know, our number one. No. He says, this way, who's our number one customer? And I said. And I didn't say anything. I was.

22:36
Tom Stanfill
I was watching. I didn't know the answer, that question. Everybody said, IBM. Well, IBM is known for sales training and known for a program called solution selling. Has anybody talked to IBM? Everybody got real quiet. Sounds like a good idea. I mean, number one customer. And so, you know, I'm like, okay, well, we'll talk about that. I made some comments and, yeah, well, we can do this, blah, blah. I don't know. I was kind of a little bit confused. So after the meeting, I call my vp and say, well, what was that? Who is that guy? And what was that all about? He goes, well, that guy is actually the president, the friend of the chairman of the board. And he used to work at IBM, and he's. He's making a recommendation to the VPN that we should talk to. Me.

23:26
Tab Norris
Yeah.

23:27
Tom Stanfill
And needless that deal. Here's the thing. They never worked with IBM. They never worked with us. The deal was, it just lost steam.

23:35
Tab Norris
Yeah. And. Which is huge, because if you don't, and I would tell people that all the time, you don't know when this is going to light up. And it'll light up, and then it can just die fast. I mean, you have no idea.

23:46
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Your biggest competition is doing nothing. And we had momentum.

23:49
Tab Norris
Yeah.

23:50
Tom Stanfill
And everybody was excited, and this guy just got him redirected, and then something happened, and the next thing you know, they never invested in any solution. Had I known that the, that was an influencer, like, if I'd have said, hey, who is this? And what's their role? Well, he's a friend of the chairman. Why do you want me to talk to him? Well, because he's. As a key influencer. We want to make sure he's on board. I would have gone and seen him personally.

24:12
Tab Norris
Oh, yeah.

24:12
Tom Stanfill
Spent time with him. Because what we need to do with influencers is look at them as decision makers and treat them as decision makers and spend the same amount of time winning them over.

24:22
Tab Norris
Yeah.

24:23
Tom Stanfill
Then we would the decision maker, because if they whisper in somebody's ear and they're with them, you know, five days a week or three days a week, or they can access them anytime. They can say anything to kill the deal. So influencers are key.

24:36
Tab Norris
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, a little story. I'm working a deal right now, and it's a, an example of tapping into an influencer. When you get. Tell me if this fits. But when you get stuck, like, I'm trying to get into this big global account, it's got lots of different businesses. It's very decentralized. And I've been getting frustrated because I can't really get much traction, and everything's. And I finally, I had a coach, and the coach said, you really need to be in these other businesses. And I'm like, well, great. But I. I can't get any traction. Is there anybody that could, you know, you. I know you love us, but is there anybody that could help me, like, who has influence, like, who has some kind of power with all these different companies? He goes, oh, yeah.

25:27
Tab Norris
And he just lit up, and he gave me this person's name, and I don't. It's been amazing. And what it turns out is this person's like in a, you know, sales enablement kind of role. But guess what? He was highly successful in multiple business units all over the world, and he has all this respect. So he does have power. Like, he can create meetings. He can set you up with the person who runs that business. I mean, it's just been, I mean, and I'm just getting started, but it's really been a great example of what you're talking about. If you got a. If you can find that person that has influence, it can be just an invaluable tool to really help you know, serve, you know, and kind of create some opportunities.

26:15
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. And it's, and it's not about manipulative. It's not about manipulation.

26:19
Tab Norris
No.

26:20
Tom Stanfill
It's about making sure that you're going to walk into a room and address all the concerns and importance for the people that have to determine what will happen. Because these are the people who potentially could get fired for choosing you.

26:34
Tab Norris
Yeah.

26:34
Tom Stanfill
Or they could get a bonus because they're cheating. These are major risks. They're major. There's, in any organization, there are people that want them to fail.

26:42
Tab Norris
Yes.

26:43
Tom Stanfill
Right. There are little birds going around. Hey, is so, and so implement is. And so if they succeed, then the people that want them to fail. Right. Kind of go away. But if it does, if they don't succeed, depending on the level. Right. The fact that they don't succeed could cost them their job. Or there's other people. Gives the other people ammunition. Well, so and so is really not doing a good job, you know, because they implemented this thing, they CRM the software, adopting it. And, you know, so this is major. We just want a commission.

27:10
Tab Norris
Yeah.

27:10
Tom Stanfill
And so by understanding what's important to everybody and by positioning why you need to talk to them, then that helps you get those meetings. And you also, the other thing you're bringing up, tab, is the point about rank doesn't equal influence.

27:24
Tab Norris
Yeah.

27:24
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. You just, it's just. Who has influence?

27:27
Tab Norris
You would never. This person, you'd never know from his rank that he has the influence that he has. And that happens all the time.

27:34
Tom Stanfill
Yes, exactly.

27:35
Tab Norris
That's great.

27:36
Tom Stanfill
The other thing I would say is the evaluator piece. Don't. That's, that's another key person.

27:41
Tab Norris
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, so what do you, I mean, if you had to net it out, what would you say is the biggest challenge?

27:50
Tom Stanfill
I think it's the evaluator. It's, it's the evaluator who acts like a decision maker and was. Is blocking your access to. Okay, I got this. Don't talk to anybody else. And, you know, and here's why that really matters.

28:06
Tab Norris
Okay.

28:06
Tom Stanfill
If what they're instructed to purchase, if you will, the solution. There, they were just, you know, the designs that they were given to go find that solution. The parameters are supposed to work in budget decision drivers doesn't match what they should be doing. Right. You know, they're making a mistake.

28:25
Tab Norris
Mm.

28:26
Tom Stanfill
And you believe you have a better solution and the evaluators, I don't care. I mean, I literally went, Tom asked if I said this to evaluator. I said what you're trying to. Okay, so your goal is sales transformation. And what you're doing is you want to implement a digital program that doesn't really bring people together and change behavior, get them in, you know, and you also have reps who don't want to change, and you want to do a digital program, which is going to be hard to drive change and you don't want to do anything for your leadership. If I could show you another way that actually could drive transformation and maybe potentially, like clients like yours whove driven millions of dollars incremental revenue growth, would you be interested in looking at another solution? Ill never forget what she said. She goes, no.

29:11
Tom Stanfill
And she was being sincere. It wasnt like, no, because youre trying to sell me something because I was dropping the rope and saying it with all curiosity that I could say it. And she's just like, no, just flat out done. Well, she's like, no. I basically says, I'm told to go find this thing. I don't really care about any of this stuff. By the way, if we grew 2 million, I probably have a hard time finding a parking space. I might have to move my desk.

29:33
Tab Norris
She didn't want to do, she could.

29:35
Tom Stanfill
Care less about the company.

29:36
Tab Norris
Done. She just wants to do the project.

29:40
Tom Stanfill
Right. So now I have a choice.

29:42
Tab Norris
Okay.

29:43
Tom Stanfill
I either could, I could either risk my relationship with the evaluator, right, and go around them or works with the evaluator. So I'm going to do the best I can to work with the evaluator when I think they're making a bad decision or I'm at risk, or they're at risk. And hopefully I can take them with me. Hopefully I can win them over and help them see that it's a benefit to them because ultimately is going to make them look good. But if they're not motivated, then I got to say, is this worth, I got to now say, I could potentially hurt this relationship and, or I could say, well, it's not worth hurting this relationship. I'm going to, I'm going to decide to lose this one because I think I can win another one.

30:28
Tab Norris
Right.

30:28
Tom Stanfill
Right. And so it's a little, I don't want to talk to a lot of different scenarios and people, and I don't want to have a flat answer, but that's the tough part.

30:36
Tab Norris
Okay.

30:37
Tom Stanfill
This is also why it's in the, what you do early is so important because if you can identify the other players and reach out to them, they can't block you.

30:45
Tab Norris
Yeah. So you're talking to them before it gets into this situation, meaning versus, you're feeling like, oh, this is not going well. So now who do I go talk to versus?

30:59
Tom Stanfill
You're down the line.

31:00
Tab Norris
Yeah, I just need to, yeah, I really, I need to improve.

31:05
Tom Stanfill
This is really good, your first meeting. Like, if I. While the thing is kind of.

31:10
Tab Norris
Yeah.

31:10
Tom Stanfill
Not baked. We're kind of just talking and you start asking questions about, well, who's driving this? And here's a question I like to ask a lot, Tab. I see you've mentioned there's four or five people involved in this. If you had to put a star next to somebody's name, who would you put it?

31:23
Tab Norris
See, I love that. I love that.

31:25
Tom Stanfill
You know, who would you circle? Who you say, the person that you feel like really has the most influence, you know? And so that's kind of what I'm looking for is I'm early, early. I don't know if I even have anything. This offer you, let's get to know each other. Who's involved, what's happening. Tell me, where did this come from? Like, back that up. Well, I don't know. Well, who does know?

31:47
Tab Norris
Yeah.

31:48
Tom Stanfill
Right. Well, what's their, you know, and they may not give you the information, but you also have opportunity to reach out to other people before they tell you that you can't.

31:57
Tab Norris
Yeah. Yeah.

31:58
Tom Stanfill
And then you can hopefully make connections so that you never have to go around anybody because you're not, you're working with multiple people and you throw those names out as you meet with the evaluation. So that's a key.

32:12
Tab Norris
Yeah. I really, this has been good. I'm just, I tell you all the time. Every time we do a podcast, I'm writing notes for myself. Right. It's great. I mean, well, I have to do.

32:24
Tom Stanfill
The same thing, Tad.

32:25
Tab Norris
You forget.

32:25
Tom Stanfill
You forget.

32:26
Tab Norris
We got a lot of things going on. And I'm just sitting here going, I've been making it harder on myself than it really needs to be. Like, I fight. I get in there and scratching claw, but I've got to do what you said. I've got to be in that very first call. That's when I need to start. And I usually wait. I usually wait till the second or third call. Then I start really get. Because if it. But what I'm doing is I'm being overly optimistic. Sure. This is going to work out. It's going to be great. Everybody's happy. We're all happy here. And you think, I love everybody.

32:57
Tom Stanfill
It's gonna go hungry. We're so hungry, too. We're all hungry. We're all, you know, we're all responsible for a number.

33:03
Tab Norris
Yep.

33:04
Tom Stanfill
Right. It's a hard job to get those somebody. Unless you're working for a company, everybody's coming at you and then.

33:09
Tab Norris
Yeah.

33:09
Tom Stanfill
Then you can just fire your customers or prospects, I should say. But, yeah, it's hard. So it's easy to. You don't want to rock the boat.

33:17
Tab Norris
Yeah.

33:18
Tom Stanfill
But, yeah, it's definitely critical. The people that win. Here's the other thing that's great about it. You don't waste time.

33:26
Tab Norris
Yeah.

33:26
Tom Stanfill
You just get more efficient if people are messing with you and like, well, I'm not going to tell you anything. I'm not going to. You're, you know, this is a closed. We're only going to give you this information, like, well, then I'm not working with you. Yeah, I'm busy. I got stuff to do. If you're. If you're just kind of. Because a lot of people are reaching out. They just want. Hey, we're already working with somebody else, but I want to keep them honest with pricing. So can I get pricing from you?

33:47
Tab Norris
Yeah. Right. It's like, maybe not.

33:50
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, I like to think of it. Tab is there are requirements to working with me. If you want my time, good at what I do. If you want my time and you want me to give you my time and not give it to somebody else, there's requirements to work with me and here are those requirements. Of course, I don't position that way.

34:11
Tab Norris
Yeah, but that's your mindset.

34:12
Tom Stanfill
But it's my mindset because it needs to be a win. Like, I'm not. If I'm a doctor and I'm an expert at knee surgery. Right. I'm an orthopedic surgeon. I focus on knees. The requirement is you have a knee problem.

34:24
Tab Norris
Yeah.

34:25
Tom Stanfill
And by the way, the requirement is I have to talk to the patient.

34:28
Tab Norris
Yeah.

34:29
Tom Stanfill
So, you know. And the person who's going to fund the surgery.

34:33
Tab Norris
Yes.

34:33
Tom Stanfill
And that you have insurance.

34:36
Tab Norris
Right.

34:37
Tom Stanfill
Or you can get insurance.

34:38
Tab Norris
Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. Well, excellent. Well, this is very helpful. I think it's always. It's a timely reminder for all of us, so.

34:50
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, I love it. Thanks, Kevin. It's getting harder and harder to do that, and I think. And I would just encourage people as we wrap up, don't be afraid to ask the tough questions. Right. Just be curious and know how to position the questions. And here's a little closing tip I'll leave with the question is the way you position the questions is my goal is to help you make the best decision. And for me to do that, I need to know who's involved, who benefits, who loses, what do they care about? Because ultimately I need to figure out if I can serve you. And by the way, in that process I might figure out I don't have what you need. I'm not international or don't have the global presence. I know we do, but, you know, whatever it is.

35:39
Tom Stanfill
And so I will exit the process and I will help you find a better solution. I'll be part of your team to help you find a better solution because that's my role. And so if I position it that way and I'm genuine, people typically will tell me what's happening because they.

35:55
Tab Norris
Genuinely believe that you're there to help them.

35:57
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

35:58
Tab Norris
Yeah.

35:58
Tom Stanfill
And they'll also sense that I'm not messing around. Like I've, I don't have time for this. And that makes them want to work with me, I think.

36:06
Tab Norris
Yeah. There's more credibility.

36:08
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. It's like, hey, we don't have, we're not working with somebody who's begging to have a meeting.

36:11
Tab Norris
Right.

36:12
Tom Stanfill
You know, we're working with somebody. It's like when you interview somebody for a job and they're like, I want a job. Can you hire me? What do I need to do? Versus somebody goes, I'm not, you're not interviewing me. I'm interviewing you. Do I want to work here? I have lots of options. Those are the people that get hired.

36:25
Tab Norris
Yeah.

36:26
Tom Stanfill
Little tip. That's a little tip for people. If they're in, if they're in a, or they're in the process of looking for a job.

36:32
Tab Norris
Just a little bonus, a little nugget at the end.

36:34
Tom Stanfill
Well, good to see you, my friend. Thanks, everybody, for joining us for another episode. Love your feedback. Want to serve you our vast and growing number of sales reps and leaders and people who are responsible for carrying a number. I know it's difficult. We'd love to help. So constantly give us feedback and give us some comments on how we can better serve you. Thanks for joining us for another episode of sales with Aslan.