Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.

The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.

The following are notes from Ep. 186 You Don't Have to be a Tiger to Sell Well

Listen to the conversation here:

Or read below- 

00:14
Tom Stanfill
Welcome back to another episode of sales with ASLAN. I'm your host, Tom Stanfill, and I'm looking at my partner in crime, Tab Norris, the best co host on the planet. Tab, how you doing today?

00:25
Tab Norris
I'm fantastic. It's always good to be here. So good to be a co host. So good. It's a great job.

00:33
Tom Stanfill
A great job. This part of the podcast reminds me of what somebody said to me the other day. We had a client in ASLAN International headquarters, which I think we're going to call it a think tank. I think that's got a better mark. And I came up with that today on a call. Let's call it a think tank. We're here at the international think tank, and they like, yeah, we love the podcast. We just always skip the part where you and tab talk at the beginning, the banter at the beginning. They just get right past that, which is, I skip past the ads when I listen to a podcast, but they're skipping past us. So I don't know, I guess that's a little bit of a critical feedback, but it also means that it was valuable. Well, they remembered it.

01:15
Tom Stanfill
No, but I appreciated the feedback. So we talked about this in prepping for this episode. Now we're getting into the content, so we're going to have less banter. Okay.

01:27
Tab Norris
You know what? We know what we ought to do. Let's build in more banter in the regular part of the show.

01:32
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, we'll spread banter out. Or you know what we ought to do? Let's add the banter to the end.

01:37
Tab Norris
That's it. Then they can just shut it off.

01:39
Tom Stanfill
If you want to hang out, if you're lonely, we'll put the banter at the end. Now it's time for banter. We'll catch up on all things, how you're back soon and everything else. I like it. But as were talking about this episode, and because we're coming to the end of the year and we're doing some analysis of our client base and what's happening in the market, what's happening with how customers buy, it's becoming more increasingly obvious that the companies that tend to reach out to us, or the challenge they have is how do we do more with our existing customers?

02:24
Tab Norris
Yes.

02:25
Tom Stanfill
Right. We've worked so hard, spent so much money, and marketing kind of bears that burden of bringing customers in, and now they're an existing customer. How do we leverage our team of reps, our account executives, account managers, sales, they all have everybody's different names for them. But it seems like a lot of the companies we serve are struggling to get their account managers, their existing sales organization. How do we go deeper and wider in the accounts? How do we grow? How do we move upstream? How do we defend? And so if you are in one of those organizations we want to talk about, what are the challenges of motivating them and equipping them to grow those accounts and move higher and deeper into the account because they're unique. Don't you agree? You agree, obviously, Zach.

03:17
Tab Norris
Yeah. That's the thing that, because you think it's just easy, you already have an existing relationship, you're already in there. It's going to be no big deal. But what we find is there are all kind of obstacles. There are all kind of things that keep that from happening. And it's rich, right? I mean, it's just a ripe environment. There's so much money there. You think about it over all these years, how many companies we've seen when they pull this off, the amount of revenue that's been left on the table because the account managers didn't feel comfortable making that move, making that change, which.

03:57
Tom Stanfill
Is one of the things we want to talk about is how do we get them to embrace that role? Because I think often to the leadership team, as I was having a conversation recently, it was like, look, they're just going around all our account. They call them account executives. They're all going around. They're giving high fives and hugs, but they're not selling. And he said to me, I want them to be tigers.

04:21
Tab Norris
Yeah.

04:23
Tom Stanfill
And I realized as he was talking about it in the way he was thinking about, it's obvious that the need. Right. We have another client I'm thinking about is like, they have a rep that sells a and exclusively sells a in these accounts, but there's other reps in the company that sell products B, C and D, and they don't care about products B, C and D. They only want to talk about a. And so how do we get them to move from, hey, we could be providing all of these products and services, but how do we get. So it's kind of an obvious to most leaders, obvious that we should be doing the work to sell the total solution.

05:02
Tom Stanfill
But to the people that gravitate to the role of an account manager, which are the people that are in organizations that are serving existing accounts, they're more farmers than hunters. It's not obvious to.

05:18
Tab Norris
There. A lot of times they're just like, tab, I'm doing great, and I'm really comfortable. I got a great thing going. Everybody loves me. I'm making plenty of money. And it is. They got a good life and they're just kind of thinking, just kind of cruising along.

05:36
Tom Stanfill
Or maybe they just aren't as motivated. They're not motivated by commission and maybe that's what you're saying.

05:42
Tab Norris
That is kind of what they're saying.

05:44
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. He's like, well, we'd pay you more money. I don't care if I were driven by money. I'd be a hunter. I would go work for a SaaS company and they'd pay me a lot of money to go out and find companies and bring them in. I'm here because I like our products. I like our industry. I'm passionate about what we do. I'm not necessarily motivated by a commission check.

06:02
Tab Norris
Yeah. And I like, and I think this is another part of that, too. Not only are they motivated by that, they're motivated by more than just hunting, more than just landing a deal. That's what I've noticed because there are some people that are wired. It's all about the challenge, the adventure, the rush of new, and boom, and there's money in the bank and it's awesome. And as soon as that's done, they can't wait to go find the next one. They're bored. And the account manager is like, oh, this is so amazing. I just got this new account that I get to build new relationships and I get to get involved in this project and I get to watch them kind of expand and grow and utilize our software or utilize our solution. And that makes them happy. They take care of them.

06:50
Tab Norris
Yeah, and I want to make them happy and we'll probably best friends for the rest of our life, whatever. And the hunter didn't think of that. This is wasting my time. It's time to go. I got to go shop. I got to go get something new.

07:03
Tom Stanfill
I think we could net all that out by saying there is a DNA of an account manager mentality, whatever you call them. If you're primarily growing existing accounts and you live or die by the ability to grow the relationships that you have or defend the relationship, the people that gravitate to that role, and this is such an important truth, have a completely different DNA than people that are going out and hunting for logos, as you just described. And if you don't understand that DNA and you don't know how to talk to them, how to train them, how to provide the right process and approach, it will fail miserably. They're not going to change because another way to say that is if you train them like hunters, they're not going to hunt.

07:50
Tab Norris
That's right.

07:51
Tom Stanfill
Let's go kill things.

07:54
Tab Norris
We've seen people try that for a long time.

07:56
Tom Stanfill
It just doesn't work. Well, one of the things that I said to the guy that I think he was the COO or CRO after our initial meeting, my first thing I said to him is, golden retrievers are never going to be tigers. He's like, do you want them to be tigers? Golden retrievers are never going to be tigers. But golden retrievers can be extremely successful in this role. Yeah. Because tigers are never going to work in this role.

08:25
Tab Norris
That's right. You're not going to get tigers to do this role.

08:28
Tom Stanfill
No, but you got to know how to motivate them. And I think that's where we should start. I think the first thing that we see works, and these are just recommendations that we're going to share with you on helping an account management organization get better at growing their accounts is the first thing we need to do is redefine the role.

08:50
Tab Norris
Yes.

08:52
Tom Stanfill
Because if we start using words like need to sell more, they get what you're saying, but they resist it. Right. And so what we like to do, and I think we found works very well, is talk about the four levels of selling and the lowest level is relationship management. Without saying you're a relationship manager, we start by saying, this is just true. The lowest level is relationship manager, which is the goal is we're here if you need me.

09:29
Tab Norris
Yeah, but I'm not going to do anything unless you ask me to.

09:34
Tom Stanfill
Start talking about it. Okay, well, that's okay. And they're thinking, well, is this what I do?

09:39
Tab Norris
Yeah, I don't know.

09:40
Tom Stanfill
We're just going to talk about truth. We're going to talk about the four levels and you can decide where you fit.

09:44
Tab Norris
Yeah. You put yourself where you need.

09:45
Tom Stanfill
The lowest level is we also will talk about a relationship manager or billboard because those are the two things that the least professional will do, which is one is I'm here to manage your relationship if you need me. And people reach out to me all the time like this, hey, I'm here if you need me. Yes, I'm available. And I want to be your friend or billboard. It's, hey, this is what we offer. Hey, there's some things that we offer. Keep that in mind.

10:11
Tab Norris
Right.

10:11
Tom Stanfill
It's a billboard of the latest.

10:13
Tab Norris
And don't you think this fits, too? It can be. You get in the mode of even when you offer solutions, you have that kind of mindset. It's punch the button. I've memorized this and I just do it. It's a billboard.

10:29
Tom Stanfill
It's a billboard.

10:29
Tab Norris
Yeah.

10:30
Tom Stanfill
Hey, keep in mind, I was conducting an assessment for one of our clients, and I was riding along with one of the account managers. It was an industrial space, and he was meeting with what they typically relationship managers do is they meet with end users, the buyers, and they meet with them and say, what do you want to order? Yeah, I'm here to take your order. I'm here to check in. I'm running my route. What can I do for you today? And so on the way out, as I watched him have this conversation, he pokes his head into the GM's office and he just kind of says, hey. And you could tell the GM was like, I don't want to talk to you. My body language is like, I'm just going to keep turning this way. And, yeah, whatever.

11:14
Tom Stanfill
I got to be nice to you because you do provide things for us. Hey, just want to let you know that we do this. And, hey, if you need anything, let me know. And he's like, basically he's saying, I know I'm bugging you, but I need to. Don't forget billboard. It's a human billboard. Very expensive human billboard. And the GM goes, thanks. And then he just walks out and both people feel bad. Yeah, the rep feels bad and the GM's like, it's just awkward.

11:43
Tab Norris
Yeah, very true. Very true.

11:46
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, that's the lowest level. But the highest level, we don't need to go through all of them. But the highest level is a trusted partner. The next level might be seller, which is they're pushing stuff and they're more proactive, but they're pushing products and services. But the highest level is a trusted partner where it's not about selling, it's about earning a seat at the table, and it's about being able to communicate to the right people in the organization. I can help you get to where you need to go.

12:19
Tab Norris
Right. And I had this conversation and I was doing a prospecting call on Monday and talking to this guy, and it was funny that you brought up the tiger. He actually said, he said this, how can I turn house cats into tigers? It was the same idea.

12:39
Tom Stanfill
Oh, wow.

12:40
Tab Norris
That's the same thing.

12:41
Tom Stanfill
Tiger things going around. There must be an. Exactly. Big tiger.

12:44
Tab Norris
Maybe said lion. I don't know. He may have said lion. I'm sorry. That's probably what it was.

12:48
Tom Stanfill
But anyway, podcast, let's say tiger.

12:50
Tab Norris
Okay, we'll stick with Tiger. But he was talking about exactly what you're saying. What he was saying is he wanted them to be trusted partners because he said, what I watch is they have just gotten into this rut of going, hey, what you got sitting around there on the desk for me like that? And then what happened is there's a shift going on in the way the buyers are wanting to buy and they've always just sold a product, right? And now guess what the customer wants. They want to do self service on product. They don't need a salesperson.

13:28
Tom Stanfill
I don't need to spend time talking.

13:30
Tab Norris
Well, what do you think? You talk about having to rethink your role. If you want to stay at this organization, you will become obsolete. But that scares them. So you can't just come in and say, hey, guys, it's going to have to take a cultural change. And I think that's what you're talking about. It's not just we're just going to flip the switch and change it. It's harder than that. Like you said, you just can't say, go do this different thing. We have to equip them. We have to work through it and get that DNA. The house cat DNA or the golden retriever DNA. Comfortable to thrive in this new world.

14:11
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, exactly. But it starts as you know, by first inspiring them to say, what if you could earn a seat at the table where the key people in that organization. So instead of him being uncomfortable as he passes by the GM's office, is that every time he's in the building, the GM wants to meet with him because he's like, hey, what else do you know about my business? This company where I was writing with this account mean they're one of the biggest in the world at what they do. They have hundreds of thousands of accounts. And guy was calling on relatively small company that manufactured cans for microbreweries. The company he worked for could squash. Know with a, like, that was a stupid analogy. But you know what?

15:04
Tom Stanfill
Their company's working with every company, probably almost in the world, not the world, but in the US anyway, who buys their products? And he had so much information that he could share and that would inspire him to say, look, this is where we're going. It's not about how you push something. This is about having a role where you are seen as a critical element of the team and the relationships are better.

15:36
Tab Norris
Yes, but you nailed it. So the first thing you have to do is redefine or reframe the role. Right. We have to do that. And it's not like just a quick fix. We've got to make sure that change management happens.

15:51
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. And the kind of way I talk about, a simple way I talk about when you're training, it's either heart, hand, or head.

15:57
Tab Norris
That's good.

15:57
Tom Stanfill
Right. It's like, what do I know, what I need to know? What am I emotional? I get emotional about, what am I inspired to do? What am I motivated to do? And hands are the skills. Right. And so we got to first capture the heart. We got to get them excited about. It's like when we say, look, and by the way, we don't want to tell them they're relationship managers, but through the description of the roles, we define. Hey, what's so great about being a trusted partner? Well, first of all, it's really fun. People are asking you about everything in their organization, and they figure out for.

16:31
Tab Norris
Themselves, Tom, that's really what you. The heart thing. They have to figure out for themselves. That's really good.

16:39
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. So I think that's the key, is they've got versus. We got to sell more stuff. We got to get passionate about earning a seat at the table. And when we earn a seat at the table, we do need to lead. Right. This isn't about being reactive. We need to lead, but it's about helping the customer solve their problems and providing them to. So if I'm meeting with a GM, I've heard organizations talk about, move from the concrete to the know. They're at the manufacturing floor. We want to move up to the offices. We need to have the expertise to be able to say if you want to accomplish that. We're working with hundreds of companies that do that, and I want to share with you best practices for how they're accomplishing it.

17:23
Tom Stanfill
So if they say, we're going to move in this direction, you go, well, actually, the companies we work with are moving in a different direction. That's how we are, quote unquote, selling. We're not pushing a product. We're saying we're helping you reach your destined destination. And people can get behind that. If they can't get behind that, they don't need to be in the role.

17:42
Tab Norris
Yeah. And we've seen it happen time and time again, which kind of leads to the.

17:51
Tom Stanfill
I think another important point is really how we talk about or how we measure their role, the language that we use, because, as you know, tab, I think most people, when they talk about selling they use the typical sales metrics, and that doesn't excite account managers.

18:14
Tab Norris
Give me an example for all the listeners. We'd say something such as, well, if.

18:21
Tom Stanfill
You wanted to talk about opportunity to grow the account, you would say, what's your account share?

18:27
Tab Norris
Yeah.

18:30
Tom Stanfill
You'Ve got this percentage of the account, or what's your revenue per account? All those, the typical things that you measure. Like, I had a client that were talking to about upselling. I mentioned this earlier on the call on the podcast, and instead of saying you're not selling products A-B-C and D, they have conversations about, have you talked to the other people? What other problems does this account have?

18:57
Tab Norris
And you know what? Guess what? That account manager loves that because that fits into their why.

19:05
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. So you create this dialogue around, look, we meet these five needs. Tell me about the people and the problems that they have related to those needs. And then obviously it's going to end up into being an account share conversation. But account share is based on need that you're not meeting. It's not based on a number. It's based on real things. Hey, what's the world look like inside this account? What is happening at the sort of, like, if we talk about meetings, let's say we're saying we need to get more meetings in the account. Hey, how many people have you met? How many appointments versus who in the organization is running the divisions? And what are the problems on their whiteboard? And what do we know about that business?

19:52
Tom Stanfill
And let's look at the account blueprint that we've developed and see where there are gaps.

19:56
Tab Norris
Yes. I love it. It reminds me of a client that we worked with where were trying to create this, trying to move that in the direction. It was the same thing. What's our share within these six major accounts? And they were always talking about that, and so were getting nowhere. I mean, no one was doing anything. And it was like, hey, let's explore. I mean, I don't know if this is true or not. Don't, because you have great relationships with these people. But I'm just curious, could there possibly be some opportunity, like some problems that we could solve? We have a big list of solutions that they may not be aware of. Could there be some opportunity there? I'd love to do an experiment.

20:42
Tab Norris
I mean, if you'd be up for it, just try to maybe dig into one or two of those with a couple of these people that you're already talking to anyway, and just see, because if there's something there obviously it would be a huge advantage if you could kind of bring that to their attention. Well, I mean, it instantly changed. They started uncovering millions of dollars of opportunity, and it was because they were doing exactly what you said. They focused on the process and the why, and it wasn't, I'm going to go get more account share because that's not what gets them excited. What got them excited is fixing more problems for their clients.

21:17
Tom Stanfill
Well, because their world that they see is defined by what the customer tells them, right. If the customer says, I'm interested in product a and I'm interested in ten of them. Right. So then the typical leader goes, well, you should sell more product B, C and D. And they're like, and here's what the rep thinks. They don't want B, C and D. Yeah.

21:38
Tab Norris
You're just trying to make me be selfish and just push what you want. Yeah.

21:40
Tom Stanfill
You want more money and I want to take. I'm siding with the customer.

21:44
Tab Norris
Right.

21:46
Tom Stanfill
That's it.

21:47
Tab Norris
That's a great way to say that.

21:49
Tom Stanfill
They told me they only want a and you want me to sell B, C and D because you care about the company profits and you don't care about our customers. That's it. If you change the language and the approach, you say, hey, did you talk to this division and these people to see what they need?

22:07
Tab Norris
Yeah.

22:09
Tom Stanfill
And now they have to say no. And then you say, why? And the only answer is I'm either lazy or don't care about the customer.

22:18
Tab Norris
Right.

22:19
Tom Stanfill
That's good. And what I've found is no one will argue with the customer. So if you can represent the customer and say, yeah, I talked to the VP of manufacturing, and this is what he told me was on their whiteboard. Right. And if you're a leader and you hear that, you go, okay, now, maybe they miss some things, but they're like, great. So, you know, yeah. And this is what's happening. They're expanding or they're doing this or they're doing that. And right now they don't need BC and D because they're in the middle of an acquisition or the middle of this. But come January, a leader will be going, that's awesome, versus they don't need it. You need to sell more.

23:01
Tom Stanfill
In other words, we all need to rally around how are we serving the customer and when the conversations about the customer and the different pockets of customers in the organization. Then I was meeting with another company that was selling to Disney, and I think it was a security company. And the need was they were talking about the analytics for the it group in the parks. It wasn't the parks. It was in one of the other divisions. I don't remember. I said, well, what's happening in the park? They said, I don't know. Could they potentially need all these different solutions that you provide? Potentially, sure. Well, who determines that? I don't know. So we just started having different conversations. It's like, oh, because it was all driven by what this person, one person they were meeting with was saying they need.

23:57
Tom Stanfill
And again, it was a reactive conversation.

24:01
Tab Norris
Yes.

24:03
Tom Stanfill
If you're talking to a rep who doesn't care about the customer, because they're like, I don't want to sell BC and D. I don't want to talk about BC and D. They're just lazy. Well, it's because they don't want to. You make it about the customer. I had a conversation with, and I loved what this guy said. He was a leader for one of the organizations were working with. And he said, yeah, some of our reps, this is what he said. If they're not motivated to explore needs throughout the organization, even if they don't represent the product, they're not going to work here.

24:42
Tab Norris
Oh, yeah.

24:45
Tom Stanfill
These reps could be super successful at selling their product, but they sold hundreds of products. And so he was just making it all about the customer.

24:58
Tab Norris
Yeah, that's great.

25:02
Tom Stanfill
That also aligns with the value system of somebody who has more of a quote unquote farmer mentality.

25:09
Tab Norris
Yeah, that's good.

25:10
Tom Stanfill
So what have you seen? Tab is the toughest thing. Okay, so we've talked about kind of mindset changing their role, how leadership talks about it. That's a lot about positioning. What have you seen as some of the biggest barriers to actually getting them to learn how to sell solutions and consult with the customer?

25:32
Tab Norris
Like the barriers that we're going to have to kind of have overcome.

25:36
Tom Stanfill
Let's say they're on board. They're like, yeah, okay, you're right. I want to be a trusted partner. Okay, you got me. I see that I'm going to have higher loyalty. I'm going to join my convert more and probably make more money. I'm sold.

25:52
Tab Norris
Well, I'll tell you, one that popped into my head immediately is just like a lot of us and everything that we do, they try to do too much all at once. I'm a huge fan. Where I've had the most success on this with people is to do baby steps. And I pick baby steps that they're going to be receptive to that. They can get their hands around. And, Tom, I'm always looking for a victory. I want to get a victory, and then I can build off that victory versus giving this big, broad, trusted partner. Here we go. Change the whole way. You're doing everything. Radically do this, radically do that. And they just get overwhelmed and it didn't happen. That's beautiful.

26:39
Tom Stanfill
I remember what you did for one of our clients, and you kind of mentioned this earlier, but I want to get more.

26:44
Tab Norris
Oh, yeah.

26:44
Tom Stanfill
Where you had them ask three questions.

26:47
Tab Norris
Yeah.

26:47
Tom Stanfill
You said, I want you to ask three questions on the next. You took a team. It was, not only was it for the reps that were part of this experiment, but the results transcended to transferred, I should say, to the whole organization. So tell me about that.

27:04
Tab Norris
Yeah. What it was is they were very tentative and all. It was a little bit around. We're going to explore this, is being a trusted partner. We're going to explore other opportunities and problems out there we could solve. And so we did. We just said for this, and this was one day I was there and I said, just for me, let's do it.

27:25
Tom Stanfill
We'll work together.

27:26
Tab Norris
Just do it for me.

27:29
Tom Stanfill
As one golden retriever to the other.

27:31
Tab Norris
Exactly.

27:32
Tom Stanfill
We're all friends here.

27:34
Tab Norris
Exactly. And so I'm telling you, Tom, it was the craziest thing I've ever seen. They were blown away because they kept hearing things like, oh, yeah, we got a whole division over here that does this and this, and that's not what you do. And they're just going, are they crazy? Do they even look at our product list? Do they look at our manual? I'm like, their manual is as thick as the New York phone book. They used to have those. They used to have those long time ago, but anyway.

28:14
Tom Stanfill
Encyclopedia Britannica.

28:15
Tab Norris
Encyclopedia Britannica. We had world book.

28:18
Tom Stanfill
I think anybody over 50 probably gets that.

28:20
Tab Norris
They do. That's mainly our crowd now. But you see what I'm saying? But it was so powerful because then you get a little victory and you get one victory, and then it kind of spread around the floor. Other people start hearing about it. And so it really did accomplish what we wanted to accomplish.

28:36
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. What was the number? Do you remember? Was it like $10 million incremental revenue that team uncovered?

28:44
Tab Norris
Yeah. That would play out through the year. That's a crazy number.

28:49
Tom Stanfill
It was a crazy number.

28:50
Tab Norris
It was a crazy number. Yeah.

28:52
Tom Stanfill
But I love that. Make it okay. So we're going to try this one thing, and it was all about, again, it was about the customer. Let's ask them if they have these needs. It's not about pushing anything because they.

29:05
Tab Norris
Had been told before, we're not getting enough printer sales or we're not getting enough Xyz sales. Come on, team, let's go. Make it happen. Sell more. And they're just turned off by that.

29:17
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, perfect. I love it. One of the things that I've seen organizations do that I'll recommend is talk to five customers.

29:29
Tab Norris
Yeah.

29:31
Tom Stanfill
So if they're wanting to develop their expertise, because that's the key to being a trusted partner, is learning to lead and having the expertise to lead. And so talking to your existing customers and ask five questions has nothing to do with what do they need to order. But kind of, hopefully, especially if they kind of move upstream a little bit and talk to kind of the director VP level and just where you've got a really good relationship, maybe not your relationship, but the company has a good relationship, and just interview them and get more familiar with how they see the world. That's something very tactical that they can do and then share the learning. But I love that.

30:13
Tom Stanfill
I think one of the things, too, that I think is critical to this is we all want them to be proactive, but we have to give them the tools to intuitively lead and be proactive versus just saying, try harder, work harder.

30:30
Tab Norris
Yeah. And that's a little bit. We were kind of going down that road a little bit, but more than that was a little bit of both. Right. A little mindset. I guess you could call that a tool. Your three questions that you can ask, that it's a way to get them going.

30:50
Tom Stanfill
No, I think that's great. I think what I'm specifically thinking about is that most difficult, I think part of the transition for an account manager who really operates more as a relationship manager than a trusted partner is changing their role from, hey, I'm here if you need me, which, by the way, when you have that mentality, people think of you as more of a customer service rep, which means that you're not somebody I need to follow to solve problems. If you're acting like you're sort of in a fulfillment role, they're going to think of you that way. And so you say, oh, now I want you to change how you think about your role, and I want you to be a trusted partner, move upstream, earn a seat at the table, all those things like, yeah, that's a big leap.

31:39
Tom Stanfill
Well, how do I begin that process? And we talk about, and if anybody's listened to our podcast, they know one of our big elements of what we teach is drop the rope.

31:49
Tab Norris
Yes.

31:50
Tom Stanfill
And I think that's just so critical. That gives them comfort level to lead. If they say, hey, two things. One is I want to focus on, here's the problems that we've learned, we've solved. So I think that's another key element is really get real comfortable with whoever they're going to call on and move beyond their existing relationships. What problems does the customer have? Lead with that, hey, we solved these problems. I don't know if you need those problems, which is a drop the rope. It's not trying to pull tug of war and force them to do anything, but we drop the rope and create a comfort zone and comfort level and just make it an option. We're asking. It's kind of like those questions that you do.

32:27
Tom Stanfill
We're just asking, hey, would you be comfortable of that guy, that rep that was, popped his head in the GM and said, hey, we work with a lot of gms in this space who are doing what you're doing. They have these problems. I don't know if you have those problems, but if you do, I'd love to talk with you about what we've learned from other organizations to see if that could be something that could help you. Would you be open to that? Now they can say yes or no, and yes or no is okay. And so now you're having this conversation about, I'm just making it an offer to move to a different level. You can say yes or no. Both answers are acceptable, but I'm asking.

33:06
Tab Norris
Yeah, I love that.

33:07
Tom Stanfill
And that's very tangible versus, you better get the meeting.

33:11
Tab Norris
Yeah.

33:12
Tom Stanfill
And I think that gives them more comfort level to lead.

33:16
Tab Norris
I agree. You know, another thing, Tom, I think when I think about a that I think helped tell me if you think this fits is you think about kind of our roadmap that we, you know, a discovery roadmap that's critical, you know, I mean, don't you think? Because that's a tool that helps people realize. I just, I remember doing this with a big technology company and some very seasoned reps, account managers, and that was one of the things they said. We kind of gave them this roadmap for other categories and places to explore, and they're just like, dang, I'm embarrassed. This is not that complicated. But my gosh, this is crazy. This is just a roadmap to help me find other opportunities that I've just not explored.

34:10
Tom Stanfill
That is, to me, the most puzzling aspect of what we do is almost every time we meet with an organization and we say, okay, what's your framework? Another way to say this. What are the boxes that the reps need to fill in related to all the people inside the organization or all the divisions inside of an organization you serve? Show me the boxes. Like what the objective of the call, what tells you have a complete understanding of all of the needs in the organization. Can you show me that framework?

34:39
Tab Norris
Yeah, no, it really is amazing, and I get it.

34:45
Tom Stanfill
People are busy.

34:46
Tab Norris
They are.

34:47
Tom Stanfill
But it's a great, that is a really good point. That's one thing anybody could take away from this is if you can build dabos on a discovery roadmap, and I think of it as important as develop it in three levels, kind of what sort of the end users that typically buy from you. Then there's sort of the mid tiers, like what's happening in department. So I'm working with a lab in a hospital. Who are the people in the lab, and what do they buy? What analytical equipment do they buy in the lab? And then who runs that department? What do they need? And then who runs maybe the hospital or the research? And so if you think of your discovery roadmap in those three levels, and.

35:32
Tab Norris
That'S really what it was, they were missing the top level and they were missing the top level, and they're like, gosh, that's good. So it's a great tool to get them kind of their eyes open to that.

35:45
Tom Stanfill
Another way to think about it is there's product, project, and total opportunity. What's happening at the product? There's a product need. There's a project need that doesn't work for everybody, and then there's a total opportunity. So if you think about that and you can develop that tool, I could totally agree that's critical, because then if you can build that into your CRM, but if you have empty boxes that need to be filled in about the customer, not about selling more, but about the customer that drives the products you offer, that becomes easier to have those conversations. I think that's tab, any other parting wisdom as we think about?

36:21
Tab Norris
I think that's plenty. We don't want to overwhelm anybody with goodness, beautiful goodness. But I think this was great. I mean, it's always inspiring. I can always tell it's a great podcast when I've got notes and I'm fired up to go sell something.

36:39
Tom Stanfill
I love it. Yeah. Well, and something I'll always say to organizations that we're working with that have this type of DNA, type of sales organization. With this kind of DNA, it is so much easier, I think, to get them the kind of a typical account manager to get better at serving their customers than taking a hunter mentality and trying to get them to serve their customers, because ultimately it's all about serving. You're more successful when you serve your customers because you know what problems they have. They're more willing to talk to you about the problems they have because you want to serve them. They're willing to meet with you. They're willing to share the truth and all those things.

37:20
Tom Stanfill
If you are leading and if you are proactive and you understand how to influence and discover and all the capabilities related to being good at our job, all those doors open if we have that right mentality. And it's much easier to take somebody who has the mentality and give them the hands, work on their hands, work on the hands in the head, because the heart's in place versus somebody's like, I don't care about the customer.

37:44
Tab Norris
Yeah, that's hard to change.

37:45
Tom Stanfill
I just want a commission. So you've got a great foundation to start. Well, thanks for listening to another episode of sales with ASLAN. As always, we love comments and feedback so we can get better and because we also helps us shape what we talk about. Tab, have a great next week, and I'll talk to you on the next episode of sales with Aslam. Or maybe in between.

38:05
Tab Norris
Maybe.

38:05
Tom Stanfill
So maybe potentially next week we might be together for your big day.

38:11
Tab Norris
Yes. We better be.

38:13
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Come on, tell the audience what's happening.

38:18
Tab Norris
All right. One of my sons is getting married next week, so we're excited.

38:24
Tom Stanfill
Now we're in the band. We're back to banter.

38:26
Tab Norris
We're back to bantering. This is perfect.

38:27
Tom Stanfill
So if you want to leave, you can leave now.

38:30
Tab Norris
Yeah. So anyway, exciting times.

38:34
Tom Stanfill
That was one of the biggest days in our family is when our kids got married. That was just such a cool thing.

38:39
Tab Norris
Yeah.

38:40
Tom Stanfill
Congrats. Awesome. All right, man. Thanks you. It's.