Welcome to SALES with ASLAN, a weekly podcast hosted by ASLAN Co-founders Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris, geared at helping sales professionals and sales leaders eliminate the hard sell. At the end of the day, we believe that selling is serving. ASLAN helps sellers make the shift from a ‘typical’ sales approach, to one that makes us more influential because we embrace the truth that the customer’s receptivity is more important than your value prop or message.

The goal of these interviews is to spotlight various experts in the world of sales and sales leadership – sharing informational stories, techniques, and expert interviews on the sales topics you care about.

The following are notes from EP. 199 Moving From Customer Led Sales to Rep Lead

On today's episode Tom, Tab, and Marc discuss moving from customer lead sales to rep lead sales. They help you ditch the reactive approach and become a sales leader your customers crave.

• Uncover the 3 Salesperson Archetypes: Are you results-driven, relationship-driven, or driven by what you represent? We'll identify your strengths and weaknesses, then show you how to leverage them for a winning, proactive approach.
• Actionable Strategies: No fluff, just practical tips and techniques to transform your sales calls from reactive pitches to engaging conversations that lead customers towards your product or service. 

Listen below:

Or read below:

00:13
Tom Stanfill
Well, welcome back to another episode of Sales with ASLAN. And we have Tad, we have Mister Mark Lampson in the studio, in our virtual studio today.

00:23
Tab Norris
It's always a great day to get the three of us together like this. It's glorious.

00:28
Marc Lamson
Tom. Just call me Mark. You don't need to miss her. But thank you, sir. I appreciate it.

00:33
Tom Stanfill
And yeah, we could easily sidetrack because it's summer and we know Mark's been on the beautiful ocean up in northeast catching tuna fish, but we're not going to go there. But if anybody who listens, our vast audience who listens to our podcast, who wants to go fishing for tuna? Mark, what are you. It's Wednesdays. Is that kind of the day you provide a free fishing?

00:55
Marc Lamson
Yeah. Yeah, it's the 12th. We do it on the 12th.

01:00
Tom Stanfill
So today we are going to talk about, as you guys know, the challenger idea, the challenger philosophy. And one of our goals at Aslan is to make sense of the world. And there's all these different methodologies and philosophies, AI, et cetera, all these changes. And our goal for our clients and prospects is to help them to make sense of the world and just basically to focus on truth and what really drives success. Right. That's our focus. When we ride along with reps, we focus on what the best reps do, what the reps that are struggling, what do they do and how can we help organizations be successful. And the challenger sale came out, I think it was 2011, something like that. And it really hit a nerve.

01:48
Tom Stanfill
And I think, and for a reason, it's because we've all been in the meetings where reps don't lead. The most unqualified person a lot of times that are leading is a customer who's never bought the solution, asks the question and drives the conversation and in the process, or drives the everything and the leader's going, why is the customer leading? And some customers should lead, right? In certain situations because they have the knowledge. But a lot of times the most qualified people aren't leading. So leaders have been frustrated, or we're avoiding those critical conversations about, why can't we talk about XYZ or just ask the tough questions. And so the challenger hit a nerve. And, and I think for a legitimate reason. We've all seen it. Right?

02:35
Marc Lamson
Well, well, it's a, I mean, it's when they traveled and looked at thousands of salespeople and really tried to put them in some buckets. I mean, it's data. It's it's a. I would equate it to spin selling. Remember, remember spin selling? That was eighties.

02:50
Tom Stanfill
That was in the eight.

02:51
Marc Lamson
I think it's like, yeah, late seventies or early eighties. And Neil Rackham did the same thing. He traveled around and had this kind of epiphany in the evolution of selling, which is the best sellers ask good questions. And so I think there's an epiphany that challenger is Ceb is putting on the table. And I think it's a valid point.

03:11
Tab Norris
Yeah, there's a lot of good. I mean, like, we've all seen it where you see these reps, they just react, and that's what people are looking for, is a vp of sales, for instance. I just got to get my people not react. This makes sense. Maybe we've hit it. We found the silver bullet, right?

03:32
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. I remember riding along with a rep as were doing our assessment for a large client in Canada, and it was a manufacturing company and account reps, and they're in there talking to their buyers, they're talking to people they always talk to about the products that the company always buys from them. And the reps just basically being a relationship manager and stopping by and asking questions, and how are you doing? And that's great, and they should do that. So then on the way out, he pokes his head in the general manager's office, and you could tell it was just this awkward. And the general manager at his back to the rep never turned around, and the reps going, hey, just wanted to say hi and see how you doing. And, and, anyway, keep in mind and look at general managers like, yeah.

04:15
Tom Stanfill
And then the person just walked out and was like. And that. That was the problem that the challenger, Dale, wanted to address.

04:26
Marc Lamson
Yeah.

04:26
Tom Stanfill
Is that. I mean, obviously, that's just a subset, but that's a relationship manager who's trying to manage relationships, and relationship is not the point. Relationship drives can determine influence, but it's not the goal. And I think that there's definitely a problem out there. But I, I think what we wanted to talk about on the podcast today is understanding the problem doesn't solve the problem.

04:50
Tab Norris
Yeah.

04:50
Tom Stanfill
And so. Right. And I know. I know people that are, you know, that sell the challenger sale and the training, I'm sure they would agree with that as well. But we want to focus on the different types of reps because we think there's different solutions for the different types of reps. And as I've thought about it, I want to hear you guys respond to this, as I think of reps in three buckets and I kind of look at them. It's their DNA. And there's these, and they all start with r. For me, there's the results driven rep who is just their cheever mindset. They love a goal. They want to succeed. They want to compete. And I think, and so there's that rep, and I think that challenging the customer aligns perfectly with who they are.

05:36
Tab Norris
They already probably do. It's how they're wired. I mean, they can't help themselves.

05:40
Tom Stanfill
Right? Yeah. And we studied those reps, and those are the ones that are most successful for obvious reasons, because they're proactive. They like to lead, they like to have tough conversations. And so that, and maybe they can get better at that. But that's a natural.

05:53
Marc Lamson
Comes natural.

05:54
Tom Stanfill
It comes natural. And then you have the relationship manager already spoke about, and those are the reps that are like, I'm here to serve you. Let me know what you need and I will get it for you. And I would say account managers typically kind of the farmer mentality falls in that bucket.

06:16
Tab Norris
Yeah, we deal with a lot of account managers like that. I mean, you guys can probably relate. I mean, I just, I was just in the field with somebody great, seasoned, veteran account manager, done really well in his career, and we did three calls together and literally he said the same thing in all of them. Pop in, hey, Jimmy, you know, whatever. You just kind of do our thing and, you know, love, have the kids, you know, and then he goes, what do you, what do you got lying around your desk that we could do for you? I mean, that was his literal sales pitch. I mean, his discovery meeting for all three meetings. I mean, to me, that's exactly what you're talking about.

06:58
Tom Stanfill
I'm here, I'm here.

07:00
Tab Norris
And I will react to anything you want, but I'm sure not going to proactively do much of anything.

07:06
Tom Stanfill
I always feel like I always categorize those as outbound inbound calls. Like, I'm here, I'm driving in, whether they on site or making a phone call. And like, is there any reason you needed to call me or ask me and you just haven't had the time, but I'm here if you need to call me.

07:23
Marc Lamson
Do you have any projects going on.

07:25
Tab Norris
That I can help you with? Right, right. What do you got sitting around? What do you got lying around over there, Henry?

07:30
Marc Lamson
I think, again, I think this is an evolution in selling. I think some time ago. Relationships, relationships are always important. They're still very important. I think it's where they fall on the priority list. I think 2030 years ago it was by getting to know people again. Culturally, this is different around the world. So somewhat percentage of our listeners are in the US. You have a feel for that, for.

07:53
Tom Stanfill
That data of our podcast, 83%.

07:55
Marc Lamson
Okay, so, you know, for, you know, I think if you go to Asia and other places, there's, there's some areas where relationship is first is important. But I think for the where relationship used to be the focus. Let's build a relationship and do business with your friends is taking a back burner life. What do I want to say? Business demands are too high. It's, it's too, there's too many demands on driving results. So, so I want to do business with you. And if you add value to me, then maybe we can be friends because that's fun, but that's not what's first. And so that's where the relationship person has a hard time, I think.

08:33
Tom Stanfill
And that's it. Yeah. And that's where the rub is because they already do have a personal relationship. Like, I remember a rep telling me about, like a relationship who said, yeah, I've gone to dinner with this guy. He's a customer of ours. I've gone dinner with him ten years, but he doesn't buy XYZ product from us. And I said, why? Because. I don't know. Because, and I think because he does have a relationship with him, Mark. And I think, and you're right, there is a pressure. I think more pressure is going to be on the, is the, as the market continues to shift and change and people become more difficult, I think the front and center rep that's going to be key to the company's success are the people that can expand the existing relationships that you have.

09:16
Tom Stanfill
It's getting harder and harder to acquire new customers. So we've got to get better at serving existing customers. And so those are the reps that are really, we need to be able to leverage. They have the relationship, they're in the building, they're in the door. And so we've worked so hard to acquire them. And I think we're going to, I think a lot of the acquire strategies are going to be, as we've talked about internally athlean, it's going to be people here about to find us the cold call. The cold marketing campaigns are becoming less and less effective, so we've got to get referrals. But either way, the relationship manager, and which is, I think, we not think we know is a majority of our customers are account managers who really want to expand their footprint within the account and move deeper and wider.

10:03
Tom Stanfill
But how do I do that when I already have this relationship with people that we have a way of operating.

10:09
Tab Norris
Yeah. And you know, another thing, Tom, it's not like they can go, yeah, we'll just fire everybody and go find a bunch of attack animals because they are responsible for 70% renewal because they defend really well and they have incredible relationships and they're trusted, and that's all good, but I need to get 30% acquired or new business out of them. And they just say, what do you got lying around? So that's the rub.

10:35
Tom Stanfill
That's the rub. That's the rub. And the one other category I want to see if you got this resonates with you guys. I think I learned this in the early two thousands when I started working with the Getty Images. Is there, the last category is what I'd call the product geek.

10:50
Tab Norris
Yes.

10:51
Tom Stanfill
The product geek is not necessarily the scientist, but it might be somebody that's just super passionate about what they sell. It's like, it's what they represent. So there's like, the results rep, there's the relationship manager, and then there's the. It's. I represent. I'm aligned to what I represent. And, like, in the case of Getty Images, they were passionate about photography and video and the whole creative world. They did not align themselves with selling. They aligned themselves with the product. And then there's other people that love, like, there. I guess there could be post and pre sale engineers. It can be success managers, customer success managers. They could be a type of a customer. I mean, I've. We worked with a client a couple of years ago and still do that.

11:33
Tom Stanfill
They have PhDs talking about analytical equipment, and they just, they know what they're doing, but they're not necessarily the kind of people that want to challenge their customers.

11:47
Tab Norris
Yeah, we think clinical. We just think of all the clinical people we work with. Anything in device or anything like that. Medical device. I mean, it's all heavy on that.

11:57
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

11:58
Marc Lamson
About knowing they know their product so well and they're proud of their product and represent, and they're really informative, but not necessarily willing to challenge when someone has a different belief.

12:09
Tom Stanfill
So what we've found, guys, and this is what our kind of getting to the really what we want to help our listeners with is if you are relationship manager, that's sort of your, again, we're talking about not your title, but your DNA. You're kind of, you think about what you enjoy. You either enjoy the relationships that you have in the account. You enjoy winning. Right. Which the challenger sale kind of aligns nicely with that DNA, or you more enjoy the relationships. You're kind of wired. That's what you enjoy most, is when you're with the customers, you're with your friends. Like, that's, what if that's more important to you and probably why you work at the company that you work at now is because that's really the kind of company you work for.

12:51
Tom Stanfill
It's not about, we have a meeting and we talk about our numbers and what did we heal this week? Because we're hunters, right? We're kind of, we're aligned with our customers, and that's a good thing. And then there's the people that are just aligned. Right. Their DNA is. I just love what I'm doing. I love what I'm selling. I love the product that we have. Okay. So those are the types. So I want to talk about the number, the two, the number two and number three that we talk about relationship manager people, because that's where I think we need to lead. And I think of the word lead as really a better of what we're trying to accomplish is how do we make it more intuitive for them to lead. Right. Not challenge to win, because this is all about how you frame it.

13:36
Tom Stanfill
This is, how do we lead our customers? Not so that we can make more money, although money's great, but how do we lead our customers in a way that's intuitive to us if we're product geeks or we're relationship managers, intuitive to us, and it's best for the customer. So it's kind of like we're reframing it. Like nobody got to challenge them. No, we've got to. How do we help them lead more effectively?

13:58
Marc Lamson
So, Tom, you're saying that not everybody is kind of wired to be a challenger. Is that what your point is? So can I say this slowly? Are you ready? Yes. Are you. Are you challenging that? Some people are challenged to challenge.

14:14
Tom Stanfill
Yes. By the way, I'm not in that. I'm. I'm in the diamond Scrabble.

14:20
Tab Norris
Is that a limerick? Because I don't know what that was. That was.

14:24
Tom Stanfill
Maybe that was the challenge because I fall into the. I follow the results. Like, I like. I like an argument. I like a debate. I believe that it's like when I read the challenge. I'm like, yes, that's right. And we'll talk about that type of rep in it. But when I work, when I think about all the reps we've ridden with for the last almost three decades, hundreds of reps, and you go, they know that they need to do something different. They just don't know how.

14:50
Marc Lamson
Well, I think we're putting a very broad brush on selling. There's a lot of types of selling, and a lot of. The challenger was, like, in the complex sale where we're really informing, as the spreadsheet guy on this call, no offense, as the spreadsheet got on this call, you know, I'll go back to the data. The data said that the data from Challenger was that 40% of. They picked five styles. We're talking about five styles. A hard worker. There's a problem solver. There's a relationship person. Then there's a lone wolf. Lone wolf. And then the challenger, 40% of top performers. The biggest category was 40%.

15:33
Tom Stanfill
Right.

15:33
Marc Lamson
Was that challenger? 40% of top performers was challenger. All the others were less than 40%. The question is, well, where are those other. There's 60% of top performers that weren't challengers that are still successful.

15:48
Tom Stanfill
Right.

15:48
Marc Lamson
So. And I think that's what we're talking about. How do we make more people more.

15:51
Tab Norris
Successful in more situations that don't naturally fall into that?

15:56
Marc Lamson
That's right.

15:57
Tab Norris
That's right.

15:57
Tom Stanfill
In other words, there's things that are. Challenger reps are doing well, according to the research, which I agree with. Right. Yeah. Then there are things that the relationship manager is doing well, and the. So how do. And that's where I've always. That's when I was my answer. The question is, how do we get all rep types with all DNA's to be successful? And I think what we're missing is we. I think we need to reframe the role. And what I always talk. Start with when I'm talking to an organization that has primary relationship managers or product geeks, and I mean that affectionately, tab, of course, you know that.

16:36
Tab Norris
Oh, yeah. Geeks are very.

16:40
Marc Lamson
Choked up.

16:41
Tom Stanfill
They're more aligned with what they represent. If that resonates better with you, is that we need to start with the why. Why do we need them to do something different? And I've always found that it's very motivating for that group is that when we say, the reason we're doing this is we're trying to help the customer make a better decision. So if the customers had it. Who, I always say this. Who's more qualified to lead this discussion? Somebody who's bought your service or solution or product a couple of times are you. Who has maybe hundreds of people in your organization and thousands of clients who understand all the things that you've learned.

17:18
Marc Lamson
Right.

17:18
Tom Stanfill
Who's more qualified to take all that information, best practices to lead the conversation, you or the customer who may never bought this before.

17:29
Tab Norris
Yeah.

17:30
Tom Stanfill
And so that's all we're trying to do is we're trying to help the customer make better decisions. And you're the one. And I always use a doctor analogy. It's like if I walked into the orthopedic surgeon goes, what do you want to work on? Like, what's going on? I mean, obviously there's some discovery.

17:44
Marc Lamson
Everything. Everything.

17:46
Tab Norris
Yeah, that's not a good analogy right now because I limp in just a minute.

17:51
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, right. Yeah. There is that. There is a, there is a little of analysis there. Yeah.

17:57
Marc Lamson
Well, you know, I think this debunks the cliche then the customer is always right. I mean, that's just not true. I mean, the customer doesn't, you know, a seller's job is to help people make good decisions. I went to the, today, it's about options. I mean, I went into the struggle. I needed mayonnaise. Do you know, ma'am, how many different types of, I thought there was, like, mayonnaise and then maybe like, miracle whip.

18:25
Tab Norris
And maybe spicy mayonnaise?

18:27
Marc Lamson
Yeah, I mean, I think there are, like, 30 types of mayonnaise. It was like, you know, no mayonnaise. Mayonnaise and just vegan mayonnaise and light mayonnaise. And the point is, the options for customers are so big and so wide. And I think that's what we do. We help people navigate their options to make the best choice. So customers don't necessarily, it's not that the customer is always right. The customer always should be heard. But then helping them educate them, I think, is where this falls in the right way.

18:59
Tom Stanfill
I trigger that. Yeah. I always say that the customer's current state and their desired future state they own. Right. That's their, that's what they, that's where they are now. And that's unique to them. And where they want to go is unique to them. And I can't help them if, I don't know, like, if you go back to the doctor that you've got problems. What do you want to do? I want to sit in a chair and watch television, well, then you don't need to have hip or hip surgery.

19:25
Marc Lamson
Right.

19:25
Tom Stanfill
But if you want. If you want to be able to be fit, you know, if you want to be active or whatever you're want what your desired destination is, then I can. Then I'm more responsible to help you come up the best bridge to get there.

19:37
Marc Lamson
Yeah, agree.

19:40
Tom Stanfill
So that's the why, right? So that's. Then that may not even be how you're teaching people to talk to the customer. It's just what this is about, right? We're not trying to get you to just make more money, which is. Money's great. We all need to be successful, right? Profits are good. Profits allows us to serve our customers. Profits allows us to invest in it. It allows us to pay our mortgages. I mean, all the things, there's all good things come for money. But the why ultimately needs to be when we're dealing with our relationships or we're educating people, it's about helping them solve their problem. So that's the backdrop, and then we got to get into the how. And what have you guys found that's most helpful in teaching someone who's typically reactive to being more proactive and being comfortable being proactive?

20:29
Tab Norris
Go ahead.

20:29
Marc Lamson
I mean, I've talked about what's your role? Help the customer. And I try to get into the difference in the conversation between want versus need. What does the customer want? Customers always going to tell you what they want, but what they need to. Your point, Tom, might be something different than what you just said, their current state and their desired state. And so when I start with, are you being successful? What's your role? What's your approach? I mean, this is years ago when I worked for APC and I worked for a previous company. We had, you know, we had one type of product. It was a very modular product. And the customer said, that was with. I was with another rep, and it was a call. I was listening to the call, and the customer said, you know what? We want a centralized product.

21:14
Marc Lamson
Well, we don't have one. Okay, well, take her easy. Thanks very much. And then later, were. Ended up talking to that customer, and the customer went with a modular solution, with a competitor. And it was like, well, I thought you didn't want one. I didn't want one. But then the other rep told me about how good it was to this modular approach, and so I'm on board. So it's like we completely. It's what it's want versus need. There's a big difference sometimes.

21:40
Tab Norris
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just had a customer, same kind of situation. I mean, they were adamant that people knew exactly what, like, deb, you don't understand our business. It's very complicated. It's very complex. And I'm like, I'm sure I don't just be curious. I mean, I said, do they always know what they need?

22:03
Tom Stanfill
They usually do.

22:04
Tab Norris
I said, well, but you're not 100% sure. No. Well, let's just do a little challenge to you because you really want to serve the customer. You want to make sure you take care of them. Just be curious. Just try it for a month. Just take some of the things we just talked about and be curious. And maybe add one or two questions to the mix to be curious to prove that you're right. Just to prove that you're right. And they coaching approach, well, a year later they. I mean, I know this is going to sound crazy. I am not exaggerating. A year later, that group of people doubled sales with no head count change. Twelve months, literally. It was that simple because there are lots of people out there that do have pain that they have no idea about.

22:52
Tab Norris
And all we have to do is be curious. And that fits so in the mindset of a relationship manager.

22:58
Tom Stanfill
And I think that's one of the ways that you can help people that are reactive, be more proactive. If you just want to categorize people in that major bucket is if they're very aware of what the potential pain is. So again, I go back to this idea. You have a current state. You have a desired future state. I know for you to get there, these five things have to happen, right? I'm not going to tell you that you're not going to do these five things or you need me for these five things, but these are the five things that have to happen. And if you're aware of that and you can double click on those things and ask about those things, say, we've learned, and again, you're not trying to tell anybody to do anything, right?

23:37
Tom Stanfill
You're not trying to control them, you're not trying to challenge them. You're just basically simply saying, if you want to reach that desired destination. We've learned by the thousands of people that we worked with and the smarter people in our organization that have been doing this, all of it, however you want to tell that story, we've learned that these five things have to happen. And so let's just unpack those are those happening. It's not challenging and trying to win an argument, have a difficult conversation. It's basically just helping them make good decisions.

24:05
Tab Norris
Yeah.

24:05
Tom Stanfill
Which I have to know the five things.

24:07
Tab Norris
Yeah, well, you have to. Well, number one, you have to actually learn. See, a lot of people don't learn enough about their destination. They just make assumptions. So they have to do that first. And then the second part is then they have to know the five things that are critical for them to have success. So.

24:24
Tom Stanfill
And I think the easiest way to have that conversation, as we always talk about. Drop the rope.

24:29
Tab Norris
Yeah.

24:29
Tom Stanfill
You know, which is this idea of, you know, one of the reasons that really active people don't want to have these conversations because they're trying to avoid conflict. 75% of the people don't like conflict. And so when you start talking about challenging the customer, like there's a reason that they're not doing that. Right? Is because they're trying to avoid conflict. They don't want to have that conversation that I have dinner with a guy for ten years and I'm going to bring up XYZ product and that's going to be uncomfortable because they don't want to talk about it because they're using the competition and you don't want to talk about it. So we just don't talk about it. You know, we're working with a client right now that is going to change. Potentially they want to change. Not potentially.

25:11
Tom Stanfill
They're going to change the way that they're going to start serving their customers. That's going to be a change for the rep and for the customer. So one of the easiest ways to have that conversation is say, hey, listen, we've learned that we're not serving you well in this area, and we would like to know more about your business and have a conversation about how, what you're trying to accomplish in your business to see how we can potentially do that. Right. Because we've just been providing products and not really concerned about what you're trying to do, and we'd like to do a better job of serving you. So I'm going to drop the rope and say, would that be okay to have a conversation? I'm not going to sell you anything.

25:46
Tom Stanfill
I just want to know, I'd like to learn more holistically about your business. Is that okay? If they say no, then okay, I'll go back to being your product.

25:58
Tab Norris
I can just respond and be your product person, and that's fine, and you have to be okay with that.

26:03
Tom Stanfill
And now I'm comfortable having the conversation, like the back to the talking about the coach that I've had dinner with for ten years and say, hey, listen, I've never really understood. There's a lot of changes that our products have made in the ten years, and I'm not really understood why you're using it. And I'm not asking you to switch. Would you be open to have a conversation about that? Maybe not a dinner, but would you be open to having. The guy says no, then great. You get to avoid conflict, but you still have the potential opportunity.

26:27
Marc Lamson
Yeah.

26:27
Tab Norris
And that's why relationship managers love this, and they really do. You can see them. We've, all three of us have seen it in the classroom. You watch them. They're like, oh, that. I can do that. That makes sense.

26:40
Marc Lamson
Well, I like to bring. I love to bring. We're talking about selling, which means influence. We're talking about changing someone's belief or opinion about how they should do something which. Which is better for them. And so I like to take things out of sails. And, Tom, since you mentioned tuna fishing, this is something that very regularly happens in the cockpit of a boat where you're sitting and fishing, and there's a discussion about where we should go fish. We fish in the ocean. The ocean's big. You know, there's not signs or like, you know, it's like the ocean. And there's a lot of discussion, and, you know, there's somebody who's making a decision who says, I think we should go do this. The relationship people on the boat who just want to kind of like, yep, that all sounds good.

27:22
Marc Lamson
Like, when we're talking in the morning, where we're going to go. Sometimes I got, you know, fish with a guy. He's a strong opinion. This is my opinion. There's another guy who's just relationship persons like, yeah, that sounds good to me. And then while we're going out, he's sitting there talking to me saying, I don't really think we should go there because somebody told me the other day that they moved. Why did you tell him? I don't want to piss them off. Like, right. It's like, exactly. So, you know, so I just said, go up there. I said just. I literally just said, go up there and say, I have some other information. Would you be open to a different opinion without being upset with me? Because this is a guy who would be upset.

27:56
Tab Norris
Yeah, yeah.

27:57
Marc Lamson
And he's like, of course the guy barks at the horse. Of course I would. Right. But he yells at him, and so he goes up there. Literally three minutes later, I feel the boat turn. We're like headed somewhere else. We went and killed it and caught a ton of fish. But people, like, know what's better. But the relationship, people are afraid it's going to hurt the relationship and they just need that little bridge. When we talk about drop the rope, I think take the trip is something else. Tom, you talk about is an important transition. Take the trip means I understand where you're coming from. Customer, captain customer. I understand where you're coming from. I understand your point of view. I get that. And there's validity to that.

28:36
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

28:37
Marc Lamson
I have other information. I have a different opinion. Would you be open to me sharing that opinion? And for the most part, people are going to say yes. If they say no to that, then are you ever really going to work with them or not? So that whole take the trip, which is, I see where you're coming from, drop the rope, which is your decision, I think makes it easy for relationship managers then to go challenge or give different information.

29:03
Tom Stanfill
I will say your example. It's good, Mark, because if the person says no, right. You have these reactive reps. You're like, I'm comfortable with my world. Right. I am not going to change because change is hard. And you're right, you're giving me some really easy tools that make it more comfortable for me. But like, usually phishing analogy, but I'm basically not going to do it. And this is where you go back to the why. Okay, so this is where you go if you want. It's all about serving the customer and you're not going to do it because you don't want to serve the customer. I got a real problem with that as a leader. Right.

29:47
Tom Stanfill
It's coming on my team because, you know, it's, you can argue it's more difficult to say you don't want to make more money or because also these people will potentially, a lot of times they're hitting their number and so the money thing can't be leveraged and they're not as tied to what's going on with the organization's goals. And they're looking at it and they're saying, we're fine, but when we make it about the customer and you say, so you're, let me get this straight. So the customer has problems and you don't want to help them with their problems because then you're not willing to adopt these real simple tools that we're giving you to do that. No. I'd say, well, then you're not a fit for this organization.

30:23
Tom Stanfill
Because if you can defend for me why it's in your best, why it's the customer's best interest for you not to ask these questions, then I will listen. And I tell you, that's how you get people. Because a lot of times, the comp, you can't create a comp plan, especially for people that are in existing relationships. It's very difficult to create a comp plan that's going to force this kind of behavior.

30:46
Tab Norris
Yeah, totally agree.

30:48
Tom Stanfill
Any other tips for our relationship manager before we just spend the last moment of our time for the people that are more driven by achievement and results?

30:57
Marc Lamson
The only thing I would share, Tom, that I thought about is when, again, I try to talk about personal things, but a lot of times, if we really are trying to convince ourselves as a relationship manager that it's okay to challenge, and in fact, it's better to challenge. If we look at our personal relationships, some of our strongest personal relationships are there because we challenge them along the way somewhere, because we see this is at home. If we love someone or care about someone, we do adopt. Our mission is to help them and serve them and help them do what's best.

31:31
Marc Lamson
And so when we have difficult conversations with our children or we challenge them and they come back this weekend, my 20 year old called my wife and said, I just wanted you to know I'm so grateful for all your help, and I'm sorry for, like, all the hard stuff I've put you through because I know I have a really good parents, like, literally had this happen this weekend. So sometimes challenging, it's not challenge for the sake, it's not challenge to get.

31:56
Tom Stanfill
It, but it's what happens because you love it.

31:58
Marc Lamson
The relationship managers reflect your personal life, and you'll find people you've challenged that you become stronger relations with because of that. And it's the same for customers. Care about them and love your customers.

32:10
Tom Stanfill
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it. That's why the why is so important. And then what makes it easy for us is if we can't force people to embrace the truth, but we can make it very comfortable for us to talk about it by dropping the rope. And then if they say, yes, I'd like to have this conversation, then we still don't have to really, quote unquote, challenge them. We can take the trip, validate their point of view, make sure they feel and should, then we say, can we share some things with you? Can I share some things with you that I feel like might be helpful for you and accomplishing what it is that you want to accomplish. They say yes or no. They're going to say yes, and then you can. Now you're ready to talk to them about what they may be missing.

32:53
Tom Stanfill
Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, let's, let's talk. Let's close with, So why doesn't sometimes challenging the customer work for those reps that are very comfortable challenging the customer?

33:08
Marc Lamson
Those are jerks category.

33:13
Tab Norris
Yeah. They don't have a filter. I mean, they get. Yeah, they get just, I mean, it just. They make people angry. They make people mad.

33:22
Tom Stanfill
Maybe one of the reasons why the relationship managers, right. In the product geeks don't want to do it is because they don't want to be perceived that way. Right.

33:29
Tab Norris
That they've seen it.

33:30
Tom Stanfill
That means that.

33:30
Marc Lamson
Yeah.

33:31
Tab Norris
Yeah. I don't know if you've ever done that. I always tell people, yeah, I've. They'll worry about that. I don't even had this conversation. I'm sure we've all coached a lot. Oh, man. I don't want to, I don't want to make anybody mad. I really don't want to be pushy or I, you know, whatever you think is too far, you're not even going to be in the vicinity of it. You pushing too hard will be like a little gnat bite. I mean, it just not going to happen because of their DNA. But I mean, they're so worried about that. But that person that goes and explodes and just goes at somebody, they don't have a filter. And so that's the challenge sometimes.

34:10
Tom Stanfill
And also, I think it's good to put because there's a reason it works. It works when somebody wants to be challenged.

34:19
Tab Norris
Yeah.

34:20
Tom Stanfill
Like they're wired saying, look, come in here, tell me, because they have the same sort of mentality, the same DNA. Like, you're in my office, tell me what I should do and stand up, you know, say something. Right. And so they love it. They're ready. Educate me. You know, you can see that works great for those people because they're sitting there with open book, ready to write down what you have to say. But the problem is, if they're emotionally closed, challenging not only works, it backfires. And I have a lot of people in this business who told me situations where they've been kicked out offices. And I'm not saying that's the philosophy of the challenger sale. Right. All I'm saying is if you challenge the people, when they're emotionally closed, they're going to become more close.

34:58
Tom Stanfill
And so what we have to do is we've got to learn how to first create as we, you know, we talk about this at, as a long time. We got to create a fertile soil before we deliver our message.

35:08
Tab Norris
Yeah.

35:08
Tom Stanfill
Right. We've got to create. We got to make sure the soils fertile before we plant the seed. And so that's a step in the process, a dimension to influence that we've got to make sure we understand is if the person's not receptive, our message doesn't matter.

35:23
Marc Lamson
Yeah, well, that starts with motive, I think, you know, motive. We've said motive is transparent.

35:28
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

35:28
Marc Lamson
And if the motive is to challenge for the sake of challenging and proving yourself right, superior, etcetera, then that's, you know, that's not going to work for someone who's not ready to be challenged. But if our motive is, I really want to help.

35:42
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

35:43
Marc Lamson
And I really, I want to. I want to teach and educate, but I have to, you know, but I need to get you there with me, then I think that motive, it goes a long ways. It's a decision. And I've had. I've been accused of challenging too much. Maybe not challenging, but, like, I had a person on my team one time saying, like, you're too intense about teaching me. Just back off. And so, you know, my mind, like, you got to get this. You got to get this right and pay attention. You know, it was a financial thing. We're on the whiteboard, and I'm kind of grilling it. It's will. And so will, if you're listening to this, like, yes, that hit me hard. You're like, would you stop? Did you stop? Like, what's the goal?

36:24
Marc Lamson
The goal is to help right, versus prove myself right. Or you gotta get this. You know, it's just, it's a motive thing.

36:33
Tom Stanfill
And you'll know that. You'll know what your motive is by how you respond to that feedback.

36:38
Marc Lamson
Correct. Fair.

36:39
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

36:39
Marc Lamson
I'm like, oh, my God, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I mean, you're right. You're right 100%. Let me back up. This is my goal. This is why I want to teach you. This is why I think you can be super successful. And I see you missing this information. So I want to help you, but it's a balance.

36:55
Tom Stanfill
All right? So I'm going to put you guys on the spot as I wrap up. Would you rather coach a achiever type rep who's comfortable, challenging to learn how to create receptivity, change the way they influence? Or would you rather coach a reactive rep, whether they're a product geek or relationship manager, to become more proactive.

37:17
Tab Norris
Wow.

37:18
Marc Lamson
Achiever, challenger to try to say, in some cases, build receptivity, or would you rather coach someone who's more reactive to.

37:26
Tom Stanfill
Be able to challenge, to be more proactive?

37:29
Tab Norris
I know my answer.

37:30
Tom Stanfill
What's your answer?

37:32
Tab Norris
I prefer a proactive person that I can help create receptivity because they're. I mean, they're. They drive. They do it. They're driven. I mean, all I got to do is show them that it works, have them try it, which they're usually willing to try anything. And I don't know. I just love the challenge of that. And then because it's just. It's sometimes it's hard to get someone who's really reactive to not be reactive.

38:02
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

38:03
Marc Lamson
Yeah. I mean, if we're. If we're. If we're playing an unscheduled game of tab picks one now I have to.

38:11
Tab Norris
And we did not prepare this.

38:13
Tom Stanfill
I'm formulating my answer.

38:16
Marc Lamson
This is for our listeners. I'm. I have our listeners best interest at heart. I'm serving.

38:20
Tom Stanfill
First of all, is this for the international listener between coaching this person or.

38:25
Marc Lamson
Coaching that person, or rather good fishing in June and July. July, if I were to be given the reactive person, I would accept that challenge. And I agree, tab. And it feels like it's easier to take something that's kind of on fire and kind of tamp it down.

38:39
Tab Norris
Yeah.

38:40
Marc Lamson
Where there's a fire versus. That's a bad metaphor versus a reactive person to amp it up. But a lot of people, and I don't think every reactive person can be turned into a challenger, but I think there's a lot of people. It's about. To me, it's about two things. One, it's about giving them a confidence in themselves and they have confidence to share something, but also helping them see situations where not challenging is bad service. It's bad customer service. It's bad serving the customer. It's not helping your customer. And to try to give them some scenarios where they haven't done that and that's really. They're doing what they. They're doing with their comfort. Like, it's easier if I don't want the challenge. It's easier not to challenge. And deep down, that's actually self centered.

39:32
Marc Lamson
That's actually about me versus, hey, this is uncomfortable, but I really want to help you. And if we just get them started. Then when the customer invites them in, then it becomes easy.

39:43
Tab Norris
Well, and I agree, and I know you agree with this. We've had success with both, for sure. I mean, and we deal with, I mean, I feel like I get to, I have to deal with a lot more relationship managers trying to get them proactive than I do. Yeah, the opposite.

40:00
Tom Stanfill
There's no right answer to the question. It's just really a personal preference. I think it has probably a lot to do with who we are as people, coaches. I find that. I think I'm more, I enjoy more dealing with a reactive rep. And here's the number one reason, is because they're usually more humble than the achiever.

40:19
Tab Norris
Yeah.

40:20
Tom Stanfill
I just, for sure, I am so drawn to people who are humble, you know, people who are like, okay, what do you, what do you think now? If, if I had a, if I have a proactive rep who's humble and willing to learn that it's going to be easier. I've just found as a majority, they're more motivated to win, and I have a harder time getting them to be open to moving away from what's working because something's working.

40:42
Tab Norris
Yeah.

40:43
Tom Stanfill
Right. And so, that's probably why I would choose the more reactive rep that is.

40:48
Tab Norris
It's a great question because I think I just love the challenge. I love the fight. I love when I have someone who's super proactive because they.

40:55
Tom Stanfill
I.

40:55
Tab Norris
You can go.

40:57
Tom Stanfill
Yeah.

40:57
Tab Norris
I mean, it's just like, let's go. Buckle up, you know?

41:03
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. Yeah. So.

41:06
Marc Lamson
But, you know, I think there is, and maybe we didn't say these words, but there's certainly wrong ways to challenge. It's okay to be, I think, of challenging sometimes. I think I've heard the word like, selling with insights, or you were giving them something disruptive. I think it's great to be disruptive, but sometimes I've had reps sell to me that were not just disruptive, basically disrespectful. Like, you don't know anything about what you're doing.

41:35
Tab Norris
They're not humble, they're arrogant.

41:37
Marc Lamson
They're not. And it affects, you know, it affects, it just don't work with them. It's like, and what you're giving me is probably technically right. But then beyond that, I mean, a couple years ago, were transactions. We were in a house transaction, and were buying a house, and the other realtor was very much a challenge. You're doing this all wrong. And we basically walked away from the deal, because even if they're right, especially in the complex sale, like, even if they're right, you're going to be challenging the whole process. This is a big process to buy. And all these other steps are going to be just difficult. And so, yeah, it is difficult. Better than just be disruptive, but don't be difficult. Won't be disrespectful.

42:22
Tab Norris
Yeah.

42:23
Tom Stanfill
Yeah. So let's. Yeah. A great way to wrap it up, Mark, is that we ultimately, the goal is to lead the customer right to the best destination, to solving their problem. That's the goal. And we're going to be more effective when we have. That is our goal. And that is why we're sharing. What we're going to share is because all back, we connect it back to what's best for the customer or whether you're proactive, reactive, product, geek, whatever, it's all about making it about the customer. And we're going to be more successful. We drop the rope. We don't put pressure because they're going to be. They're going to trust us more. They're going to be more open to our, to the insights that we want to share. We need to first validate their point of view. Right.

43:05
Tom Stanfill
Because they're not going to listen to us until we validate, not hear their point of view, but validate their point of view so that they know they've heard. That builds more receptivity to the message that we're, you know, we're going to deliver later both drop the rope and check the trip. We don't have to do anything other than communicate that all options are open and then we want to learn about them. Then we have the information and we have a fertile soil where we can now plant the seed. And now it's going to be easy to do that. And that works for both any type of rep and then they'll be successful in all situations and scenarios. Right. And so we're not building a process and a methodology around what's comfortable to them. We're building it around what's best for the customer. And that's.

43:44
Tom Stanfill
That's ultimately what our passion is.

43:46
Tab Norris
That's it.

43:49
Tom Stanfill
Better job of serving the customer. All right, man. Great, great. I loved our debate. I know we kind of just allowed ourselves to sort of talk about this big topic and I hope it's helpful to our listeners. And thank you again for joining us for another episode of sales with Aslan.